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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by Nahuris
Actually, the fighters have been working themselves in game very nicely. I have noticed though, that carriers are expensive. Due to the cost of the fighters, the carriers end up with far larger values than an equal sized capital ship built for pure combat.
John
Can we count the poison gas shells as a crowd control device?
The Iron Stars // Wardogs crossover sounds really interesting....
John
I hate replying to myself... but had a further idea... maybe each damage die can get an equal number of pieces of equipment equal to the pen value...... that would encourage people to go for a higher pen value to go along with things.... a high rate of fire with high pen would rapidly raise the cost of the weapon enough that it would make the players have to choose, and also inspire players to have more than 3/1/1 weapons with mods.....
I don't want to make the high rate of fire more expensive, because it does make sense to have the weapon for anti-fighter usage, and to simulate large multi-barrel turrets (star blazers Yamato is a good example). I just want to encourage people to use the full range of available weapon options on the field......
John
Ok, when I mentioned the weapons being cheaper, I was looking at the range 9 small weapons, and comparing prices for the high rof's vs. the 1/1/1 support weapons.
To get the same number of dice in an arc, I ended up with fewer high rof weapons overall......
Also, a weapon with rof 3 is more or less, 3 seperate weapons on one mount (or rapid fire, ect... but still the equivelent of 3 rof1 weapons). One hit to that weapon bank kills the equivelent of 3 weapons, where one hit on a bank of 1/1/1 weapons only kills one die..... Hence you get more survivability out of smaller single shot weapons.
For my remark on damage, I'll see if I can explain it better.
As my ships closed with each other, one of my range 9 1/1/1 weapons hit the other ship. The hit penetrated on a 6 and did damage. When I rolled to see what was hit, I lost the following items.... 1 hull, 1 engine, 1 weapon from battery a, and the hyperdrive...... basically 4 pieces of equipment off of 1 die of damage.
What I was suggesting, was having the damage done equal the number of die rolled.... basically, I would have chosen one of those pieces of equipment to lose....
a weapon with rof 3 and pen 1 dmg 1 that hits with all 2 hits, and Penetrates with 1 (average rolls....) so only rolls 1 die for damage, gets one piece of equipment.
While another weapon with rof 1, pen 2 dmg, 2 hits and penetrates with both die and rolls 4 damage dice, each claiming one piece of equipment....
To me, and this is my opinion, it would even out the overall damage between the weapons, and would also boost the abilities of the spinal mount weapons. It also would make some of the smaller ships more survivable, as I actually have seen my hull 2 ships destroyed in one hit from a weapon that was 2/1/1..... They had an engine of 8 so when hit, both die hit, both penetrated, and the first hit did 1 hull, 1 weapon a (all the weapons) and 3 engine hits........
the second hit destroyed 1 hull (killing the ship) 2 engine hits, and a shield hit...... I could have instead allowed those two hits to take engines, or maybe a shield and an engine, and kept the ship for another turn or two..... also, that makes extra hull damage on a weapon a real power to be feared on the field.....
This way, the smaller ships have a lot of real value in the game, and you don't keep seeing nothing but heavy battlecruisers running around.
Case in point, I was looking at the random fleet tables, and noted that you don't see anything at or over a 1000 points without rolling quite high on the large fleet table. I know that I built a hull 8 carrier once, with all of the tech levels at 0 and it cost 378 points. With a fleet of 600 to 700 points, I wouldn't be able to put much else out on the board, and a hull 8 ship won't last long......
I personally like the idea of a 2 to 4 hour game.... where most of the games I have been running or playing have been lasting only 1 - 2 hours.....
I had one with my fiance, and due to the dice rolling good to hit and pen numbers, the whole game only lasted 38 minutes.... where we were hoping to make an afternoon of it........
I hope that this explains it better....
John
Ok,
Last night, I decided to put this to the test. I created 4 battlecruisers (2 for each side) and added 4 flights of fighters per side. The BCs were designed exclusively for combat with the same shields and movement, no science labs, ect.... and the only difference was one side which had 3/1/1 weapons, and the other which had some 1/1/1 and a couple big 1/1/3 weapons each.......
The fighters were long range, and hyperspaced in with the ships (no hangers on the ships themselves)
I also made sure that the ranges were the same, the to-hits were the same, ect.
The only thing that differed sligtly was the number of short range guns.... instead of managing 3 1/1/1 guns for every 3/1/1.... the ratio was more like 2.4 to 1.... which did seem to give the high rof weapons an advantage.
All weapons were 4+ to hit, and the big guns were 18 range, the small guns were 9 ( high ROF ship had it's weapons divided into two categories...... the same ranges vs. number of weapons)
In the end, I didn't find that much of a difference. One flight of fighters got chewed up during the game.... one of the hight rof ships used two of it's cannons on the fighter flight and managed to hit and destroy 4 of the 6 fighters in one turn...... but I found that with the fighters moving first, and firing first, they were able to be effective against the ships, even with the high rof.... and I also found one other interesting thing that is not being considered with all of these charts and tables........
Ships with the high rof weapons tend to have fewer overall weapons..... and when one takes a hit, you lose 3 dice to hit with....
Losing on 3/1/1 weapon is worse than losing one 1/1/1 weapon.
For that matter, on turn 3, 2 wings of fighters (one with only 2 fighters left) managed to swoop in, and pretty much strip away one whole bay of weapons in one turn..... and because they were fighters, this was before the ship with the high rof could fire back. And when it came time for the return fire... there wasn't a whole lot left to fire with.......
Honestly... the one issue that came up was something totally different... due to the way that hit tables are.... I had a range 9 1/1/1 small laser take out a hull hit, an engine hit, a weapon hit, and the hyperdrive on one of the other battlecruisers..... I'd be inclined to set a rule that you may only take out one item per dice that hits...... I.E. you have a weapon 1/1/1 and it hits, penetrates and then rolls for damage and gets the above location.... the defending player gets to choose whether it's a hull hit, a weapon hit, an engine hit, or finally, the hyperdrive.......
It would make the big weapons nasty by giving they the chance to actually do a lot of damage at once, while easing down the destructive power of high rof weapons.... maybe we can offer this instead of changing the formula for the weapons.
John
I also support the customizable drones..... since my primary race and ship designs use them, the option to customize them would be awesome.
One idea I am working on right now is technical readouts. With the possibilities inherent in the game, we have the possibility of creating an ever expanding universe, with new races and ideas coming from all of the different players.
My only request as to change in the system, would be the ability to have seperate tech levels per each piece of equipment. Or maybe more categories if possible. I am not familiar with the VBAM material, so cannot comment on that, other than from what I have seen here, it sounds interesting. Also, if we have people good at the graphic art needed (I'm not one of them), then I'd also like to see counters made for those that can't or don't want, figurines.
Just my humble offering to the game....
John
I am not sure, as I only have the base version of the spreadsheet downloaded at the moment. I'll need to download the others at home, and play with it some.
I'll take a look when I get a chance.
John
I wish I was there to lend a hand....
John
I don't mind either way.... I would want the spreadsheet to allow you to pick different tech levels for each piece of equipment you put on a design.....
To me, a cloaking generator is a lot different than drones, or Marines.... but they are all considered special equipment, and therefore under the same tech level.
Then again, I am a firm believer in the scenario driven game over just the generic battle.
I eventually plan on creating some technical readout books for my fleets.... if anyone would be interested in that idea.
John
I started that idea here.... and just drawing from computer games, ended up with almost 7 dozen weapons......
Also, in a lot of movies, they never define the weapons, they just have them shooting (Wingcommander, the new Battlestar Galactica, ect.)
The list started getting extremely unweildy really quick. Also, it depends on your view.... In battletech, you have a gauss rifle.... basically a rail gun.
Some people only consider that idea feasible as a spinal mount....
Others use the approach that you see in CAV where there are different calibres of gauss rifles, to include rapid fire versions......
I am now creating my weapon lists based on race.... which allows one unique feature. My Kayeshi empire is a +1 tech base for weapons, but their newest development, the Plasma Induction Cannon is actually still at
-1, due to it's experimental nature..... yes, I hand design their ships to make it work......LOL
I'd love it if the spreadsheet allowed you to pick a tech level for each piece of equipment....... but I don't mind doing the paper math.
For the Kayeshi... their fighters are at -1 tech, while their weapons are at +1. Everything else is at zero.... with the above mentioned exceptions......
John
Actually, I would love to get a few counters that are actual size....... I scratch build my own figs....... but the only commercial ones that I have were created by Studio Bergstrom, and while awesome, tend to run a touch small. I am kind of looking for something to give me an idea of what scales people use, so that I can work accordingly.... I am also going to be ordering some Fleet Action scale ships soon, and maybe some other stuff...... however, outside of ordering online, I am limited, as there are no local game stores in my area..... and again, some of those pics don't give me an idea of scale.
John
I also use the following site for my scratch builds
http://warlords.swrebellion.com/compendium.htm
there is an image section, and there are beautiful 3D cads that are perfect for scratchbuilders.
It's where I have been getting ideas for some of the figs I have been making.
John
You're right, replying to yourself IS a bad habbit.......
For Star Destroyers, which don't have lasers, I use more than one bank of identical weapons.... in this case, turbo lasers. Especially since the spreadsheet limits you to 11 weapons per bank.
John
When I have done star wars ships, I have always used range 9 rof 3 - pen 1 - dmg 1
I assume that the high rof is just multiple cannons firing at the same time.
Range 9 means that the weapons outrange the fighter class weapons by 800%.
Even in Return of the Jedi... the capital ships were extremely close before they started firing on each other.
As far as Ion Cannons are concerned, I count them as the lasers with the no hull damage weapon mod.
Finally, the real difference between lasers and Turbo Lasers (at least to me) is range... I give the lasers a range 3 or 6.... although you can give the Turbo lasers a pen of 2 to simulate their higher impact power......
John
Just want to apologize to everyone for sort of dropping off the earth..... I have been putting in 12 - 14 hour days at work, and my fiance' is having a really hard time with this pregnancy.
We have found that she can only eat the following foods, and no more than a quarter cup of food at a time.
Strawberries
mashed potatoes
pirogies
tortilla shells (plain)
plain pasta
rice pudding
baked potatoe
breaded fish sticks
I will be back as soon as my life calms down a bit. But for now, the real world is definitely intruding on my galaxy.......LOL
John
I am originally from the very northern tip of New York.... right at the Canadian border.... and now live an hour south of Seattle.........
I am still waiting for winter.....LOL
I'd love to see how the people here deal with 30 below zero weather...
John
I designed one ship with a hull 24.....
However, I really don't like anything greater than 16 or so.......
I think the issue is that "hull points" are so arbitrary, and that it is hard to scale out what is a Hull 3 vs. what is a hull 6....
John
Normally, my fiance and I do theme based fleets, and everything is farely well balanced.....
Every once in a while, we like to do an extreme style game, though.... that weapon she developed was for one of those.... and yes, I did get creamed, but it took a while, as my PDS was extremely effective.
She didn't like getting 60 drones in one round either..... I designed 3 ships each carrying as many drones as I could fit on the frame..... (about 90 or so) and during the battle, I kept sending them out in waves.......
Any extreme will kill a ship not set to counter the exteme.... but once the other players know what you plan... they can usually come up with a counter.
On the fighters, I hadn't actually looked at the CR..... This discussion started as a simple curiosity question......
With the CR cost, the half shields ability makes sense...... Although I would still like to see something for bombers........ As has been already mentioned, assault fighters are better bombers than the bombers are.......
John
I'm not sure the constructing fighters as hull 1 ships is the answer.......
The game is set up around the capital ships..... If you set fighters as hull one ships, then the other ships in the game have to go larger (Hull 20 battleships are only equivelent to 20 fighters.... does that make a Star Destroyer a hull 72 ship? It does carry 72 fighter craft.........
My suggestion is having the fighters as they are now, with even the 10 movement, but they do not halve shields.... and then have bombers, with a higher cost, that halve shields, and maybe a movement of 9 . And maybe high speed interceptors, with a speed 12, but do no hull damage to capital ships.....ect.
I have also looked into an earlier response.... that if fighters didn't halve shields, then they would be worthless..... but that becomes true of any weapon...... even a 3/1/1 weapon with repeating still needs to roll a 6 to get through strength 5 shields.......... Anything that modifies the chance to get through shields is extremely expensive... unless you decide to use fighters..... and fighters can pretty much outrange any weapon in 2 turns or less.
Finally, everyone talkes about the anti-fighter weapons, and true, they work well... short range 3/1/1 with a few options...... The downside is that short range. To get the high rate of fire, and the repeating, ect.... you sacrifice range. If the player with the fighters waits until his capital ships engage, or only engage his capitals at a longer range, those weapons are kind of worthless..... and after they are damaged, send in the fighters to mop up. My fiance did it to me already.... she developed a weapon 3/2/2/ at range 18 with no hull damage, repeating, reversed range modifiers. The base to hit number was 4+ so she needed a 3 to hit me at long range.... half of my weapons didn't reach her, as I was using anti-fighter weapons (we were experimenting with generic ships) and hosed me. By the time she decided to send in her fighters, I didn't have the weapons to stop them anymore..... and they finished the battle (awesome tactics, and exploiting my weakness...... I should have seen it coming)
I only ask that everyone remember that these are opinions..... I love the rules as they are..... I was just looking to add more color to the game.
John
And every
I haven't had a problem with fighters.... this thread started as a curiousity.
And went to throwing out ideas.....
For that matter, my first 2 light cruisers with gatling lasers made their debut last night..... and even though the Slyth'Kra sent 8 wings of fighters in.... the Kayeshi forces were victorious. Unfortunately, all 3 of my wings of fighters were shot down, and my Heavy Cruiser took some serious damage.....
The Slyth'Kra lost a light carrier, 8 wings of fighters, and 1 escort destroyer, their other 2 escort destroyers managed to jump out of system.
I lost my light cruiser (refitted to carry 3 wings of fighters) and took serious damage to my heavy cruiser, and moderate damage to both of my anti-fighter escort cruisers.... but held my own.
The fighters are working fine in our games so far.... so I don't see a problem with them. Although my fighters not being able to inflict hull damage on capital ships does hurt......
John
According to the books, it takes several x-wings, and they link their fire so that the torpedoes all hit the same spot, staggerd by a split second.... the first couple of torpedoes overload the shield in that location, and the next couple get through.....
I am still thinking that the halving shields should be a property of bombers, while interceptors concentrate on shooting down fighters, bombers, drones and battle-sats......but am not sure how to put this in game.
John
I'll see what I can do..... the biggest 2 drains on my time are work, which is requiring a lot of overtime right now, and the fact that my fiance' and I are now expecting.
Making for an interesting time.......LOL
John
The two extremes.... meant to follow along the general paths of thought... I.E Star Trek..... primarily capital ships, very few fighters, and a old sailing navy feel to the game, and Star Wars...... fighters are the main focus in attack, and individually are quite dangerous. More akin in feeling to the modern navy.
John
Unfortunately, due to a number of changes in my personal life.... I haven't the time to actually get these built. The only place I get to post from is work, and I don't have time to put my notes into Drake Notation.
Until I get more time to get things done, I am going to put this project on hold, and will publish the designs, along with pics of the figs when I get a chance.
Thanks Much
John
I would think that 4 wings could stack....... that would give you 24 dice from one "stack" on the attack........
We have had some really strange encounters, as one of the things that we occasionally do is go to extremes just to see how things play out.... like a hull 20 carrier with engines of 1, shields of 3, only 6 lasers at range 6 and the rest of the ship as fighter bays and 1 launch bay per each 2 or 3 fighter bays....... (he fielded 5 of these carriers)
I don't remember exactly how many fighter wings were on each ship...... but I do know that my friend started losing track of the fighters, as there were so many of them that he filled half the board..........
I do really like the idea of different flavors in a game. The case in point, my Kayeshi do not field carriers yet...... they have some retro-fitted light cruisers that each carry 3 wings of fighters..... and they usually don't launch them, unless the enemy has fighters deployed.......as Kayeshi fighters are very poorly designed (weapon does no hull damage to capital ships, and they have a movement of 9...... they lack good fuel efficiency, and their weapons are re-fitted ballistic weapons from ground vehicles and they have problems with controlling recoil, so the calibers are small) I still pay normal price for my fighters, and that's what I field. Right now, in our campaign, they are attempting to create a better engine to get their speed up to match their opponents.... but they haven't succeeded........ yet.
John
mj12games.com/forum → Posts by Nahuris
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