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Sent my email to your work address. . .
Your column shift modifier logic makes sense. . . so I'll bow to your wisdom on this one. I still say my GF approach is better though! 
jygro wrote:The mechanic looks fine, but ya won't know more until you put 25 to 40 ships on the board and try it out. Why isn't there a +1 shift for a PEN higher than ARM. Seems to me that it should be, but I'm not too worried if it's left out.
Thanks for asking about this.
Because that actually has been thought about and thought about and thought about.
It may end up being put back in.
Kevin
A good question. . .
I would tend to think though that a negative column shift for penetration that was not high enough to penetrate the armor reflects that lack of penetration.
But if the shell *IS* enough to penetrate the armor, even more penetration is not a good thing. In fact, too much could actually be a bad thing as the shell would pass right through the ship and not explode.
So, just because the pen value is higher than the armor, does not necessarily equate to more damage. Make sense?
I guess one question I have, not yet having studied it in detail (you sending those files?). . .
You start out on the left-most column, correct? What if there are leftward column shifts when you're already on the left-most column? Can this ever happen?
What about a system where you start out on the left-most column. . and that is the BEST possible result you can get under ideal circumstances, and there are *ONLY* factors that cause rightward shifts to be considered.
Its the whole "math should only go in one direction" thing that speeds up play. Its easier for people to check off a list of factors and move that many columns right, than it is to check off a list of right shifts, check off a list of left shifts, net the two together, and apply that to the sheet. Make sense?
OK. . . so it doesn't sound like you're interested in pursuing my idea for a combat mechanic, totally fine. I'll be happy to help out however I can with you on the one your developing.
The problem with opposed rolls I've seen in other games, is that the vagaries of the dice can produce some really wonky results, like large caliber guns glancing off thin armor, or small caliber guns getting good hits against heavily armored opponents.
If the dice type isn't big enough to produce those kinds of results, then its generally a small enough difference that you're better off just eliminating it altogether.
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Oh ye of little faith!
That's where having a lot of experience running "mega battles" comes into play. . . .
I agree. . . it would be impossible to do if you treated it just like a game with your buddies. Just won't work.
Instead you have to put measures in place to keep the game moving at a brisk pace, and find ways to cut corners.
For example. . making sure each person has a realistic number of units to control (a single squadron of ships in this case), and putting time limits on each phase to make sure they get through those units promptly. What you move you move, what you shoot you shoot. Don't finish soon enough, tough.
Then. . . first couple turns will be mostly sequential in terms of shooting, as people are learning the rules. . . after that. . . everything is simultaneous. People find their opposite numbers and conduct their gunfire at the same time as all the rest of the people on their side. There will be a little overlap here and there, but for the most part it will be possible to get through it fairly quickly.
Then the other side all shoots at the same time.
Its all about keeping the game organized and moving at a brisk pace. Once people get comfortable with the rules, and realize nobody is going to wait for them to dither back and forth all day, things run smoothly.
Anyway. . . done this many times with more complicated systems that S: Dreadnoughts. . . no reason it won't work in this case. My only major concern is getting 17 players at the table. But hopefully at GenCon that shouldn't be an issue.
The point costs are relatively unimportant for me. I like to run particular scenarios. Still, they are a nice to have and I'm glad dreadnoughts has them.
Point costs for Dreadnoughts seem fine to me for the most part.
You just incorporate it as part of the Naval Movement system.
When moving you choose whether "Lay Smoke" is on or off.
Sweet!! Bring it on!
No, I think your title had it right.
Here are some. . . not sure if this has what you need, but you can check it out:
Well, I guess that would be an argument against making it a special. Its not a special trait that ought to be paid for. . . since technically any ship could do it.
I don't know that destroyers and light cruisers really ought to pay for this ability at all. I think its just something they ought to have for free to fulfill their role. Admirals are then free to use that ability or not according to preference/situation.
So I guess I am more on the side of it being an action, rather than a special now.
So only weapons with piercing could damage them at all?
Don't worry Kevin. . . there are still plenty of us Grand Fleets players out here. Exceptions on this forum aside, I think for the most part, the people playing Dreadnoughts are I expect relatively new to naval wargaming who might eventually move on to Grand Fleets, or people like myself who are avid Grand Fleets players, but need a faster system to run really large battles in a convention environment, where the rules must be taught at the same time as the game is played, and still fit in a relatively short time frame.
I love Dreadnoughts. . . but I am also chomping at the bit for GF II!!
I guess there isn't any particular reason it couldn't. Its just something I would probably add to all light cruisers and destroyers.
Technically all ships had this capability, but this keeps the screening elements doing their jobs, and the combat elements blowing stuff up.
Updated my house rules document to v1.3.
Included:
Expanded smoke rules
Tips on tracking Concentration of Fire modifiers in large games quickly and easily
You can get the updated document, along with my various play aids here:
http://grandfleets.pbwiki.com
Played some Grand Fleets last night and came up with some slightly expanded smoke rules for that system.
Got me thinking about S:Dreadnoughts and how it ought to have smoke rules as well. Skimming back through the rulebook, I didn't happen to notice any. So here are some smoke rules, stripped down from the GF version.
Light cruisers & Destroyers may lay smoke.
When a ship lays smoke, place TWO smoke counters in each hex it exits during its move. (Do not place any in the final hex of its move.)
Line of sight is blocked for any hex containing smoke counters.
During each end phase, remove 1 smoke counter from every hex containing smoke.
Used smokescreens for the first time in our game last night. Noticed that unless I miss it, there is no rule for smoke dissipation. It says you put the counters down, but doesn't say anything about when you pick them up.
We came up with our own expansion/variant on the existing smoke rules, that worked extremely well for us and "felt right."
Only destroyers a light cruisers are generally used for laying smoke. (This actually makes light cruisers a little more useful and more effective in the role of a screening element.)
Whenever a ship lays smoke place TWO smoke counters in each hex it enters during movement for that turn.
At each end phase, remove 1 smoke counter from each hex containing smoke.
Shooting through smoke counters takes a -1 penalty for each smoke counter it must pass through to the target. Smoke counters in your own and the target's hex count against this total.
If there are three or more smoke counters in a single hex, that hex blocks line of sight completely.
Torpedoes are unaffected by smoke, except where line of sight is completely blocked.
. . . with surprising results!
The scenario --
January 19, 1915
While patrolling the outer edges of Heligoland Bight in the hopes of intercepting any German attempt to break out, the 4th Battle Squadron has been caught in a heavy storm. Blown miles off course, the squadron has become separated from the main patrol fleet and most of its escorts have been scattered. To make matters worse, HMS Erin struck a drifting mine and sank with heavy loss of life. Just as the weather clears and the battered squadron sets course for home, the remnants of its cruiser screen report contact with enemy capital ships. The Germans are attempting to break out, and only the battered and depleted 4th Battle Squadron is in position to stop them from reaching the coast on England!
Order of Battle
Grand Fleet
4th Battle Squadron
Benbow
Agincourt
Bellerophon
Dreadnought
Emperor of India
Temeraire
Attached Armored Cruisers
Defence
Warrior
Black Prince
Minotaur
Shannon
Attached Light Cruisers
Galatea
Paheton
High Seas Fleet
I Battle Squadron
1st Division
Ostfriesland
Thuringen
Helgoland
Oldenburg
2nd Division
Posen
Rheinland
Nassau
Westfalen
I Scouting Group
Seydlitz
Moltke
Derfflinger
I was expecting the British fleet to get pounded into scrap by the superior forces of the High Seas Fleet elements.
Unfortunately for the Germans, while they were successfully able to form an effective battle line with the I Battle Squadron, the resulting formation left the 2nd Division miles to the rear, unable to engage effectively in the early part of the battle.
Meanwhile the I Scouting Group charged forward on a course tangential to the British axis of attack, intending to rake the British dreadnoughts and armored cruisers with punishing fire, leaving them easy meat for the I Battle Squadron to clean up. Unfortunately, the British admiral successfully used his light cruisers to screen the British fleet behind a thick smokescreen - rendering the powerful German battlecruisers largely impotent during the early enagagement.
The result was that the British were successfully able to deploy the bulk of their dreadnoughts and armored cruisers in a manner to engage the largely isolated 1st Division of the German I Battle Squadron - with predictable results. By the time the battlecruisers had manuevered into position, and the 2nd Division had closed the range, Thuringen had exploded quite spectacularly to a magazine hit after receiving a drubbing from Dreadnought, Emperor of India, and Agincourt.
Helgoland followed quickly after once the British fire shifted to her and she suffered a long series of consecutive heavy shell hits.
German return fire was largely ineffectual. . . although they managed to cripple the Dreadnought. Listing heavily she made her best speed in trying to escape the combat zone, Defence had been sunk, and Bellerophon had been successfully torpedoed by the Moltke and the crew was making preparations to abandon ship.
The issue was settled decisively however when a couragous torpedo run on the German battlecruisers by Phaeton and Galatea, under cover of heavy shellfire from the rear of the British battleline managed to sink Seydlitz, and render Moltke a burning hulk that was quickly taking on water and had to be abandoned.
At that point we called the game, very much surprised that the supposedly outclassed British fleet had acquitted itself so well.
Its scheduled for Saturday at 1:00. Its been full on pre-reg for quite a while, but you are welcome to show up in case there are any no-shows.
I think that's really going to depend on how powerful you want your ships to be.
Just off the top of my head, I would assume 250 points per ship to be fairly reasonable.
So if you're assuming 8 ships a side, that would be a 2000 point game.
OTOH. . . I'm running a Starmada Star Trek game at Gencon, and I think the average ship is somewhere around 400 - 450. . . so I guess I would suggest building a ship you think is a reasonable 'middle of the road' example, find out how much it costs, then multiply by 8.
It seems like the next logical step. Piercing has about maxed out. . . but you could start increasing the damage dice of the guns for the really big ones, the 16/45s, 16/50s and 18.1's.
Your WWII battleships would be either armor 4 or 5 depending on what they had going.
Some of the really heavily armored ones could have an additional ability related to that. There used to be armor plating/armored gun batteries in Starmada X. . . I don't recall if there is anything like that in S:AE?
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