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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by madpax
Even so, it would use three traits to simulate one... :?
Marc
No idea what you mean by the first one, do you mean short range makes it even easier to hit, and long range even harder to hit?
It's simply a (for example) Range-Based Incremental damage. With such a trait, a dmg 1 weapon would inflict 2 damages at short range, 1 at medium and 0 at long range.
The second one reminds me of "Re-rolls to hit" that they had in Starmada X, and I would really like to see that trait back.
The second one would inflict damages to its owner.
Marc
Looking at the existing weapon traits, I was wondering about the following ones:
- Something similar to the Range-Based-#, but instead of multiplying the rating by 3/2/1, the rating would be instead modified by +1/0/-1. It allows for a finer difference of value depending of the range. I suppose the cost factor would be slightly less than 1.
- A weapon that would inflict damage to its owner depending of the a DR. For example, every time a 1 is rolled, reroll. Any '1' is one damage point inflicted to the owning ship. Again, the cost of such a weapon would be reduced.
Marc
As a side note, I modified the fighter values (characteristics and price) and introduced the anti-ship missiles, but alas, the data I have on my USB key are corrupted.I will update them as soon as I can. But, I designed all fighters in order for each flight to cost a bit less than 30, and for missiles to cost less than 15, in order to chose any number of them easily.
BTW, about carrier capacity, if I had to reproduce the same one as in Starfire, I would have end up with a lot of vacuum inside carriers. Especially when they are unarmed. On the other hand, it makes them very expensive compared to their counterpart.
Marc
Thanks for the quick answer.
Marc
Using 3.1 movement rules, do you need to spend at least 1 MP between maneuvers?
Marc
You could use the K/E/B shields from the VBAM/ Starmada books.
Unfortunately, I don't know anything about VBAM, and I'd like to keep withing Starmada AE parameters.
It has been a long time since I played Starfire, but if I recall correctly, Shields only tripped against energy beams, Armor was a more general defense
Some weapons affect both shield and armor, some only the shield (Energy Beam), some only the armor (laser).
you could always try the proposed Extended Shield Ratings if you want to try converting the later modules.
I'd like to know about that, but, for consistency purpose, I will keep with the same rules.
I know I will never reproduce exactly Starfire ships and weapons, but at least for weapons, I will try to keep them as close to Starfire as possible.
Thanks for the info!
Marc
I am an old SFB player who also got into Starfire in the late 80's.
BTW, I'm in the process of converting the Starfire universes in starmada terms, here:
http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopi … amp;t=2449
I continue to update th etopic.
Marc
I do have a question about seekers/strikers though. Are they limited by the same launch restrictions as fighters? In other words, if I have a ship that could launch 4 fighter flights per turn, but also carries strikers, does that mean it could launch 2 strikers and 2 fighters (or whatever combination)
Yes. The max number of 'things' it can launch in a turn includes fighters, seekers, etc.
Marc
I understand people may disagree with some decisions made in the conversion, but there was some actual thought put into the process...
I don't disagree with you about the result, even if I would have done things a bit différently. And maybe it wouldn't have changed things a bit. But I didn't worked on that, and will play the rules and ships as they are.
However, I can understand why some things are unsettling, like when a ship is able to unload all its drones in a turn whereas it couldn't fire more than 2 of them in FC.
In the same way, phasers seem a bit too powerful at short range, but compared to FC, they don't hit automatically.
Etc. etc.
Whatever, in the end, I agree with the way ships are designed, and will continue to play Starmada as it's the best tactical space opera game I know (after having played a lot of them).
Marc
I agree with you as in Starmada, speed and maneuvrability are correlated and that the klings are usually more maneuvrable than their fed counterparts, and I don't know why it had been decided that a ship could usually fire 12 drones in a starmada turn instead of 2 in a FC turn. Maybe the starmada turn lasts longer than a FC turn...
Whatever, a simple solution would be to increase the drone racks (make tham double, or quadruple) and reduce the number of drones fired accordingly. For example, a 'drone rack 4' becomes a 'drone rack 16', and a 'drone' is instead made of 1 real drone.
I don't know about game balance, but this way, those ships using lot of drones will lose some fighting power.
Marc
Maybe you could give the ships countermeasures if they have at least X D/Di per hull size?
Except, as you say that countermeasures work against anything and look like more the '?' system.
I know it isn't great given that this would also work against lasers, force beams, etc, but the only other option I can see is to make the missile launchers into seekers and make D/Di anti-fighter batteries (or fighter exclusive weapons).
I feel that every way you look, there is something that prevents you to reproduce (almost) exactly the same effects.
I will have the same problem with the 'O' overload dampener that protects the ship only against the enery weapon. Or how to simulate the fact that the primary beam doesn't affect systems that are after the first 10 ones (currently, it's one of the cheapest weapon, whoch is not the case with Starfire, IIRC). Sometimes, I prefer to avoid simulating exactly some systems instead of ending in a dead way.
I agree that many of the later ships ended up feeling the same (just lots of missile and anti-missile systems) until the arrival of the Thebans and then the Arachnids and their different weapons/doctrines.
I have some other expansions but I'm not sure I have the Thebans.
Whatever, although it doesn't follow the starfire way (all race could have the same systems, and can produce an almost infinite number of different ships for the same hull size because it's an arms race, where everyone tries to copy the enemy's superiority), I prefer to make each race particular to avoid the 'I'm Terran and you're Khanate, but essentially we are the same' syndroms.
Also, I don't want to reproduce every ship for every size. One or two ship for each size is enough, IMHO.
Marc
As I said, I feel it's impossible to simulate everything, especially if you want it the same way as in the original game. Look at the way drones are simulated in Klingon armada.
Also, Starfire allows each and every race to use exactly the same systems. As I said, if I was to reproduce all ships of each race, not only it would have been a tenuous task, but in the end, it seems that all ships would look like more or less the same. I like the way ships are different from one race to another and similar to other ships of the same race, as in the ISS and Grumm wars booK.
For the D and Di, alas, nothing could really simulate them, as long as the missile launcher cannot be intercepted. I don't know how I could have represented D, except as a reduction of probability of hit.
If someone has an idea, don't hesitate.
I will present my first batch of ships during the following days.
Marc
I'm not sure I will represent them, but if so, it will be as anti-ship missiles carried the same way as fighters. Of course, contrary to Starfire, they can't be destroyed, unless using critical hit rules.
Marc
Here are how I would simulate the weapons used in Starfire.
Missile launcher : -/7-12/13-18, 1/4+/1/1
No Range Mods, Minimum Range
Railgun: 1-3/4-6/7-9, 1/4+/1/1
Double Range Mods, Extra Hull Damage
Laser Cannon: 1-4/5-8/-, 1/3+/1/1
Carronade, Halves Shields, Double Damage
Force Beam: 1-5/6-9/10-15, 1/3+/1/1
Increased Impact, Piercing
Primary Beam: 1-4/5-8/9-12, 1/2+/1/1
Ignores Shields, No Hull Damage, Slow-Firing
Energy Beam: 1-4/5-8/9-12, 1/3+/1/1
Continuing Damage, No Hull Damage
Capital Missile Launcher: -/9-16/17-24, ¼+/1/2
No Range Mods, Minimum Range, Starship Exclusive
Capital Force Beam: 1-6/7-12/13-18, 1/3+/2/1
Increased Impact, Piercing, Starship Exclusive
Capital Primary Beam: 1-5/6-9/10-15, 1/2+/1/1
Ignores Shields, No Hull Damage, Slow-Firing
Capital Energy Beam: 1-5/6-9/10-15, 1/3+/1/2
Continuing Damage, No Hull Damage, Starship Exclusive
Advanced Missile launcher : -/7-12/13-18, 1/4+/1/1
No Range Mods, Minimum Range, Repeating
Advanced Railgun: 1-3/4-6/7-9, 1/4+/1/1
Double Range Mods, Extra Hull Damage, Repeating
Needle Beam: 1-5/6-9/10-15, 1/3+/1/1
No Hull Damage, Repeating
Fighter ‘gun': 6/11/0/Interceptor 5+ Rof 2(58)
Fighter ‘laser': 6/9/0/Fighter 5+/ piercing (57)
Fighter ‘missile': 6/9/2/Fighter 5+ (58)
Fighter ‘rockets': 6/8/0/Fighter 5+/dmg-2 (59)
Missile, Standard: 6/10/5+ Seekers (15)
Missile, Capital: 4/10/5+ Seekers/ dmg 2 (14)
Missile, ADM: 6/10/5+ Seekers/ No Hull Damage – Piercing (15)
For simplicity sake, all fighters will cost 60 points, and all missiles will cost 15 points.
Marc
I edited the first message as I modified the way I will do the work.
After having worked a lot on this project, and after much thoughts, I decided not to convert each and every ships as it would have been a daunting task. The Terran would have more than 60 designs, discounting bases and freighters. Not only that, but Starfire allows every ‘race' to use any available systems as they wish. In fact, aside Rigelian, and maybe Gorm, I didn't find any real difference between races ships. No distinctive trait. I would have been dull.
So I decided to reduce the number of ships, usually one for each size. Then to use distinctive racial traits for each race, even if in Starfire this is not really the case.
First of all, I determine the size of each ship category. Easy to do, I divided the starfire hull size by 6, FRU, giving me the following numbers:
Escort ES/Corvet CT 2;
Frigate FG 3;
Destroyer DD/Escort Carrier CVE 5;
Light Cruiser CL/ Small Carrier CVS 8;
Heavy Cruiser CA/Light Carrier CVL 10;
Battlecruiser BC 13; Carrier CV 14;
Battleship BB/Battle Carrier CVB 16;
Super Dreadnought SD/ Assault Carrier CVA 21;
There are bigger ships than that, but I feel that a 21 hull super dreadnought should be a big enough ship to handle.
Then the engine. I use a base of 6 for all ships, minus 1 for CL/CA, minus for bigger ships, plus 1 for FG or smaller ships, and plus one if using advanced maneuvering.
The shield value will be the sum of both shield and armor divided by 6, FRU.
In the end, the national traits will be the following:
Terran: All ships will have Fire control and anti-fighter batteries, the latter increasing in value according to the ship size. As weapons Terran ships will use W (a double-mode weapon, firing either as a short range railgun or a long range missile), F (force beam, in essence a very powerful and long-ranged weapon, tearing apart the enemy ships) and occasionnaly P (primary beam, a very narrow beam, able to easily pierce defense but needing time to recycle). Bigger ships will be able to use Rc (capital missile launcher) instead of W, Fc (capital force beam) instead of F, and Pc (capital primary beam) instead of P.
Khanate: According to the Starfire unverse, it seems that Khanate were a bit behind the terran in the arms race. I decided to make their ships more bulky and using less powerful weapons. All ships will have armor plating. They will also have anti-fighter batteries, but in lower numbers. Their weapons will be R (missile launcher), L (laser cannons, good medium range piercing weapons) and P. R are replaced on bigger ships by Rc, P by Pc.
Ophiucci: They have less ships than the previous empires, and makes them more technologically advanced than other races. All of them will have Fire control and stealth. They developed a unique weapon, E (Energy beam, able to skip a lot of systems and killing the most important ones). Their secondary weapon will be the W, upgraded as a Rc for big ships. Their tertiary weapons will be very short ranged missiles, useful against fighters.
Gorm: Their ships benefit from countermeasures and, using special engines, overthrusters, and some anti-fighters batteries. Their weaponry allows them to use mainly W, upgraded to Rc, and F, upgraded to Fc, and occasionnaly N (needle beam, a powerful version of the primary beam).
Last but not least, the Rigelian. They put the emphasis on carriers, contrary to all other races which use them sparsely, if not at all. Their ships will have countermeasures and a better engine value, due to the extensive use of advanced maneuvering. Their main weapons are Wa (quick firing W) and Fc.
The fighter used by all those races deploying them will be in four flavours:
Those equipped with ‘guns' will be treated as fast interceptors. Those with missiles will have a better defense (able to shoot from a longer range, although they still fire from an adjacent hex) Those with rockets (short range missiles) will have dmg 2. Those with laser with piercing.
The carrier capacity can also be used by some ships to carry anti-ship missiles (seekers) but not in a systematical way.
Next step, designing the weapons.
Marc
IIRC, you're talking about the Legend of the Rangers. The weapon control system wasn't only idiotic, but it was also ridiculous...
Marc
Funny, it works the same way as the shadows tendrils (B5 Universe, B5 wars rules).
As Starmada doesn't use energy, I have no idea how it could be simulated.
Maybe by using weapons with random ROF/IMP/DMG to simulate the fact that energy is not always available.
Marc
You're right. I was thinking about screens, where the values can change each turn, as the player whishes.
Marc
BTW, do you have an handy way to indicate the facet value of each shield?
Marc
When looking at the Pakmara list, I wonder about a thing.
The plasma web is both fighter exclusive and range-based imp. But, as it can fire only at fighters, the imp and dmg traits are not used. So what use is a range-based imp?
A range-based rof would have a meaning, no?
Marc
... the license will die.
Is that good or bad news?
BTW, a question to mj12games/D. Kast, aside the SFU, what are the official projects for Starmada?
Marc
Any chance of having an official release of BAB 5 ships (Babylon Armada)?
Marc
I've let down a bit that subject, but I'm still working on it, especially the weapons. About your questions, you are right, but I didn't want to reproduce exactly Starfire restrictions. I know that weapons should all have the same weapon arc and all be able to shoot anywhere except in the rear, but I wanted to do something else, something more 'realistic'. Otherwise, I feel all ship designs would be more or less the same.
BTW, the Starfire Discovery has only one laser gun. This one has two of them, covering more or less the same arcs, otherwise it would have a lot of empty space
I reworked the Discovery stats and reduced its hull and changed the laser fire arcs.
I should be able to add new things soon.
Marc
While the shields seemed straight forward, the results for hull and engines don't seem to match up with the books. In Starmada the KA/RA hulls are too small to hold all the equipment CA = 10 and D7 = 9. I could see the 'generic' starmada construction could be ignored for a more direct conversion, but the hulls do not seem to match those in Starfleet Battles either, CA = 16 D7=11. Also within Star Fleet battles the CA and D7 have similar speeds/power but different speeds in KA/RA.
I would say that the difference in hull size is derived from the resilience of both ships. IIRC, the fed CA was able to ditch a bit more hits than a D7. But the D7 was more maneuverable, hence the better speed.
I need to play again using KA ships, but during my first play (plagued with rules mistakes), it seems that ships are much too powerful at short range.
Marc
mj12games.com/forum → Posts by madpax
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