76

(59 replies, posted in Starmada)

Without power allocation it isn't too hard to see abstractly how maneuver will be important when weapon arcs and the different shield facing strengths are listed.  But with the slow speeds of Starmada compared to SFB (is FC similar?) maneuvering won't matter that much.  Still, it wouldn't hurt to play a few games of FC to help understand how the ships should be designed.

77

(59 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

Looks good.   8-)
Perhaps the range of the Phaser Ones should be increased to 18.  In Star Fleet Battles, these phasers shot farther than any other ship weapon.  This would also increase the cost of the Fed CA making it closer to the D7's cost.  Also, make all the Klingon D7's phasers the Phaser Twos which could have a range of 15.  Keep the range for the 'torpedos and the phaser Threes the same.  :idea:

I agree with this, except ..
I'd lower the Phaser-3's range to 6, they were really short ranged weapons and only did real damage at very close ranges. 

Now the problem is the way Starmada movement works vs how SFB movement works, especially when it comes to fighters.  In SFB, those short-ranged Phaser-3s had a chance to knock out fighters as those fighters moved in, but with Starmada's move-full-distance-then-shoot we have fighters outside of the Ph-3 range now moving within range and firing before the Ph-3s can shoot at them.  I don't know if this can be remedied, excepting to make Ph-3 range out to 12, but that really does not seem right.

78

(59 replies, posted in Starmada)

some more data (had to reread the thread to remember these things)...

Photon torpedo: always did 8 points of damage, no matter the range, it just had a very low hit probability at long ranges.  Took 2 turns to arm, costing 2 energy per turn. 

Disruptor: better hit probability, but lower damage and damage was based on range.  Took one turn to arm (can fire every round) costing 2 energy to arm.  The disruptor, at ranges from 9-15, rivaled the Ph-1 in damage-to-energy ratio.

Overloaded torpedoes did double the damage, costing twice as much power to arm, with a maxium range of 8. 

I like what you did with overloading since you don't get quite double the damage so it takes more thought if you want to use it.  In SFB games I played torpedoes were almost always overloaded when the combat was within range 8 and energy could be spared for it. 


Shields (if I remember these correctly, and I just threw out all the SSDs with huge dust bunnies sitting on them  wink ) ...

Fed CA      : 30, 24, 24, 20, 20, 20
Klingon D7 : 30, 22, 22, 15, 15, 13
D7B & D7C : 30, 22, 22, 20, 20, 20 

IMO (and I hate to say this since I usually play Klingons), change the AS and AP shielding of the D7 to 1-1 (instead of 2-1).  This might help bring the cost of the D7 down.


hull...

Klingon ships were a little more fragile than their Federation counterparts (had less hull boxes and "free hits", e.g., Labs), so I suggest changing the Klingon D7's hull to 9.  Of course, maybe you can't fit stuff into a 9 hull?


engines...

All ships had the same maximum speed in SFB (31), but Klingons did have better turning capabilities, so the engine ratings seem fine.

79

(59 replies, posted in Starmada)

A radical thought, but what if the first damage 'roll' for any weapon battery was a shield hit.  So if the D7 shot three Phaser 1 and got to roll 4 damage rolls (after the to hit and impact rolls), the first would be a shield hit and the other 3 would be rolled as normal.

I like this idea.  Normally in SFB you had to bring the entire shield down on a side to get damage on the ship, so any excess damage over the shield rating would be rolled as normal.

IMO, to be more like Starmada with a touch of SFB, just having the first hit from one enemy ship's fire automatically hit the facing shield and the rest rolled as normal.

80

(59 replies, posted in Starmada)

Some SFB stats..

Phaser-1 (Ph-1) maximum range was 75, cost 1 energy point,
Phaser-2 (Ph-2) maxium range of 50, cost 1 energy point,
Phaser-3 (Ph-3) maximum range of 15, cost 1/2 energy point,
Phaser-4 (Ph-4) maximum range was 100, cost 2 energy points, but this was a base-only weapon,
(costs are just to show what it took to arm them)
but I don't recall people shooting past range 30 with intact ships except once in a fleet battle, although long range sniping from a very damaged ship happened once in a while,
all torpedo type weapons had a maxium range of 30, exception: in some versions the disruptor maximum range was determined by the size of the ship: small to large went from 15 (escort), 22 (destroyer/frigate), 30 (cruiser), and, I think, 45 (dreadnought/battleship).

All phasers shot at drones and shuttles/fighters with the same penalty (none), while direct-firing torpedoes had a -2.  IMO, all phasers should have the anti-fighter bonus.

The Ph-1 was the most energy efficient ship-based weapon of the game.  The Ph-2 was close, but damage tended to drop off quickly in comparison.  The Ph-2 at range 0 averaged better damaged than the Ph-1, but only at range 0.  Phasers were the most versatile weapons.  They just didn't have the punch of an overloaded torpedo, but then overloaded torpedoes were very energy-consuming.  And in SFB, energy is life.

The D7C (Command version of the D7) had it's 3 forward Ph-2s replaced with Ph-1s.

The D7's cost/combat rating was always less than the Fed's heavy cruiser.  It took a refit (D7B) with increased shielding in the rear (and other stuff I can't recall, although faster drone shooting was one) to match the Fed CA in cost.

I see a lot of single arc weapons in your designs.  Single arc weapons in SFB were very rare. 

I would go with FC on ship designs, since that is the newest and most streamlined version of SFB.  I've yet to see FC, but Starmada designs based on it would probably fit better.

thedugan wrote:

Don't feel bad Dan, I've got a crapload of Traveller stuff, and didn't get the reference either.

tsk tsk.. both of you have to give up some geek AND gearhead cred.     lol

I knew those terms and can still recall their artwork in their first publication (which I have sitting in a box behind me).   :geek:

82

(60 replies, posted in Starmada)

japridemor wrote:

Energy Allocation
/end sarcasm


and an Impulse movement system where you can fire weapons after each hex of movement.
/end moresarcasm

83

(60 replies, posted in Starmada)

Blacklancer99 wrote:

Another thought...How about a way to differentiate between, Normal and Weak hulled ships? I was thinking of something that would be along the lines of a modifier to construction that wouldn't affect gameplay in any way. A weak hulled merchant designed with 10 hulls of SUs to accomodate cargo space would apply the "Weak" modifier so that the final Hull that shows on the Ship Display would be, say 8 (to pick a simple number...I KNOW Dan would have to use the square root of something). I'm thinking of campaign games here mostly, and it makes something like a Q-ship converted freighter something other than a warship in sheeps clothing. By the same respect, a battleship with 10 Hull spaces worth of equipement stay 10 Hull hits, representing additional internal bracing, bulkheads, compartmentalization, redundant systems, etc...to make it ton for ton, more durable than the merchant.
I know you could do Strong Hulls too, but it adds a greater degree of complexity, and doesn't seem necessary to the flavor of the game if you just consider warships as the "norm".
Just thinking again.
Cheers,
Erik

It's not really worth it.  A 'merchant' ship that's made up of 90% cargo space and a token weapon is cheap enough.  And, if you don't put any weapons/offensive systems at all on it then it's free (CRAT = 0).  Don't put any defenses on those ships and they go *boom* pretty darn fast.   :idea:  Another idea is to let the damage rolls of 2,4,6 also do a hull hit.

I figured out the statistics for some of my Traveller ship miniatures, giving them each a weapon (or two for the Millenium... er, "Free Trader"  wink ), and the total cost of the five of them is less than any capital ship (even those dinky ones that the rest of you use  big_smile ).

84

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

I think Armor Plating is not something you can totally destroy.  Like I put in my chart, it can be bypassed for a particular DMG roll (or rolls from the same IMP die if DMG>1) like a critical hit but cannot ever be destroyed to non-functional status for the rest of the scenario.

The same can apply to Regeneration.  This would seem to be a shipwide ability of its hull, like human skin for humans.   Perhaps it can be impaired momentarily (i.e., shock), but should not be a system that is totally destroyed in one shot.  Or, it can have a set number of hits it can take before it becomes non-functional.
   :idea: Borrowing from the Hyperdrive activating sequence method: each hit does 1D6 damage and when the total damage to Regeneration is 10 or greater then the Regeneration no longer functions (the system is repairing itself?).  It's also something that cannot be repaired in the scenario.  :idea:

85

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

OldnGrey wrote:

If worried about the 2D6 curve use a D12 (ah yes starmada fans they do exist!)

Don't get your Depends in a knot  :mrgreen: , yes we know about d12s.  But how often are you going to have one around with your Starmada stuff?  You can roll 2 D6s to get the same effect (die 1: 1-3=die 2 as rolled, 4-6=6+ die 2).  At first I didn't like the idea, but once I came up with my chart I started warming up to it.  Especially when I added a couple extra things you normally cannot get, like the Blow Through! (armor plating bypassed for one weapon) and losing repair ability.  The odds of those happening are low, being on the extreme ends of the chart, but it can happen.

Except for which weapon battery goes in which of the 3 locations, the player does not have any say so about anything else about damage.  Die roll: 1-2 = engines, 3-4 = shields, 5-6 = weapons, odd = hull.  So why let them have a say in how the special equipment damage chart should look like?  I foresee a lot of munchkinism in allowing it.

86

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

The problem with 2D6 is that it's a "curve" (not exactly, but similar) in that 7 is the most common roll.  It might be better to assign systems to slot numbers.  An example (if ship does not have a system that is rolled then treat as no effect), if multiple systems are listed then it's the defender's choice as to what is damaged:

2 : Blow Through!  Armor plating has no effect on the damage roll (meaning 1s will do damage for that weapon hit)
3 : Fire control/Countermeasures out next turn
4 : All Launch Tubes/Teleporters out next turn
5 : Point Defense/Overthrusters out next turn
6 : Hyperdrive out two turns (such a fragile system  wink )
7 : 50 Science/50 Hospital/100 Cargo/100 Repair/100 Transport/Bowling Alley ( :mrgreen: ) destroyed
8 : 50 Carrier space destroyed
9 : Stealth/Cloaking out next turn
10: 4 Anti-fighter Batteries destroyed/4 Mines destroyed/1 Marine (tough lil buggers, aren't they?  lol) destroyed
11: Regeneration hampered this turn, only 1/6 chance of repairing hull damage
12: ship loses a damage control party (destroyed) (yes, means something else to keep track of, but you're already adding a lot more detail when this damage system anyway  big_smile )

Instead of worrying about repairing these systems, I went with temporary damage for some systems otherwise a destroyed system is that: destroyed for the scenario.  Another idea is to use the regular repair rolls and if a roll cannot repair an indicated system then it repairs any special system of the owner's choice (i.e., no engines are damaged but a roll indicates to repair an engine hit so the owner chooses to repair 1 AFB).  Also, I put in fixed numbers to keep the amount of dice rolling down some.  :roll: <---   big_smile  (on ROLLing eyes)

87

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

This discussion is illustrative of something I decided for Starmada a LOOONG time ago. Namely:

We don't care about the HOWS or WHYS of space travel and/or combat, only the WHATS.

Thus, you can explain the mechanics of fighters however you'd like -- all we care about is how they function within the game.

But it does matter on whether ones thinks how large a threat fighters should pose.  The only thing we have to go on is what particular fictional universe do we want to simulate and then we'd have to allow optional cost/rules changes to fighter design or anti-fighter weapon design.  For Star Trek, fighters were very rare so it would seem big ships rule (excepting Star Fleet Battles adding fighters ad naseum which ruined the game for me); this could mean that either fighters were costlier for their effect, ship defenses were too strong for fighter-based weapons, or ship-based anti-fighter weapons were too effective against them (or fighters didn't matter to the plotlines  wink ).  But, many other universes, such as Star Wars and BSG, made fighters a larger threat.  What fighters did in those universes is allowed the individual main characters to have a larger role in space combat.  It would be tough to get a cruiser down the Death Star's trench.   big_smile

After I have designed a few fighters, I noticed that they do get expensive very quickly such that a squadron can rival a small ship in CRAT.  And generally, when playing against an opponent with long range weapons those expensive squadrons are not worth it.  I've since taken to using seekers (my "nukes": Piercing+1, IMP-3, DMG-3) and put them on ships that aim to get close enough to launch such that those seekers will not get shot at next turn before they get to move and attack their targets. (which means my "Klingons" started looking like SFB Klingons, and I hated drones on those ships... go figure   :roll: ).

88

(60 replies, posted in Starmada)

Shieldbreaker - a weapon ability that does Shield Damage whether it makes the IMP roll or not.

The recent AFB suggestion might be more of an Improved AFB, for those of us who rather fight fighters/strikers with some ship-based weapon system rather than other fighters/strikers.

89

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

We can theorize how space fighters might work, but it's still theories until we actually deploy them and use them.

Un-manned may be the only way to go for small craft.  Weapon systems may be better on large ships.  Anti-spacefighter/spacemissile systems might work too well for small fighting craft to be effective.

Your man-in-a-ball fighter (a plated-over-window of the Star Wars T.I.E. fighter?) isn't very "romantic" and never shown in entertainment media, even though it may be the way they work.  Or the ball might be smaller with the "pilot" sitting safely in a large ship further away communicating with his vessel via direct beam communications.

The air-borne laser project by the USAF shows how a turreted laser beam can work, so long-nosed fighters might be better for laser weaponry.

90

(60 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

So, think big. What's missing from the Universal Game of Starship Combat?


Super computer/A.I. run ships.     big_smile   

Deckplans for boarding actions, with new 15mm miniatures to go with it.  (hey, I'm just trying to get more of those for my Traveller RPG games  wink ).

Cone-shaped AOE ability for weapons. (that will be expensive!)

Grappling hooks  (I kid.. I still think that was quite a silly thing on Enterprise)

91

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

underling wrote:

You'd think that after ten years, *someone* would *finally* get the fighter rules right.
Ho ho ho...
:wink:
Kevin

We're talking about rules for something we don't have much idea how it will work in real life. 

I wonder what the rules would look like if someone in 1920 wrote a set of future naval rules, say for +100 years.  Fixed-wing aircraft probably wouldn't even be considered.  Lighter-than-air craft might make for the main air element, if any.  Perhaps he would join the naval vessel with the new land tank and allow for vehicles that would go both on land and at sea and come up with: The Battletankship.  big_smile

92

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

The British were already showing the value of naval air power in WW2 before the Japanese got involved, even with British "obsolete" naval aircraft.  Swordfish vs. Bismarck, anyone?    smile   

Now, we are not playing a WW2-era game.  And in space, there really is no difference between a "fighter" and a "ship" in terms of the medium they are maneuvering in.  What can be  different is mass vs maneuvering engine in the construction.  If fighters are considered to be a short duration combat vessel then it can sacrifice the amenities of living conditions (like a bowling alley  lol ), most life support functions that a ship has, powerful sensors, scientific gear, medcial facilities, and all the staff needed for such things, which cuts down on the fighter's mass and lets it have more maneuverability for the same size engine.  It can also be made smaller for the same abilities that a similar ship has.  But the cost is that it must return to a base very soon after launch.

What does this mean for Starmada?  I like the fighter movement rules, it lets the fighters be more flexible and maneuverable, and saves game time plotting movement/actions for all those squadrons (and striker/seeker salvos). What I don't like is the free action that fighters get vs. ships.  Both in WW2, and seen in the movies (such a great standard of reality  :roll: ), anti-aircraft/starfighter systems got to damage and destroy some of fighters before those fighters got to attack ships; but not in Starmada. 

Luke wouldn't have needed to fly down the trench of the Death Star since a few of the first wave of bombers that was shot down by anti-fighter defenses probably would have instead been able to drop their special package down that vulnerable spot if Starmada was used to simulate the battle.  tongue 

Changing how AFBs work seems to me to be the simplest, and most logical considering their name and how they function now, way to allow some sort of active defense for ships vs fighters.  And, make them useful against strikers and seekers.

93

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

Lone Gunman wrote:

Concerning the AFB, if a rule ajustment is made, I'm sure it would increase the price of the batteries. So, why not simply making it a pool of dice against fighters in the fighter phase and no longer any use against ships(always thought that such point defense weapons could not damage a cap-ship)?  :?:

They aren't worth their cost now.  Usually, it's either you have too many (enemy does not have any fighters) or you do not have enough and are pointless if the ship dies or is severely damaged in the Fighter Phase before the AFBs get to fire.  They are worthless against strikers/seekers.

94

(67 replies, posted in Starmada)

Seems to me that Anti-Fighter Batteries should have been given the option to fire in either the Fighter Phase or the Ship Combat Phase, with AFBs being able to fire before the fighters attack their target. 

Rule suggestion:
The AFBs of a ship must be plotted at the start of the turn as to which phase, Fighter Phase or Ship Combat Phase, they can fire in and all AFBs of that ship can only fire in that phase.  Any number of AFBs can be fired at a fighter group, but all that are to be fired at a specific target must be designated before dice are rolled.  Example: BB Bozo has 24 AFBs which have been plotted to fire in the Fighter Phase.  It is attacked by the first of three enemy fighter groups (6 units per group) that could attack it, so the player chooses to fire 8 AFBs at the fighter group, leaving 16 AFBs for any possible other attacks by fighter groups.  The dice rolls are 1,1,1,3,4,4,5,6 thus two fighters are destroyed before they get to roll their attacks against the ship.

Optional idea for damaging AFBs: if any AFB roll is a 1, one AFB is destroyed and unrepairable (keep track like you do with lost Marines); this would be one of the currently fired AFBs.  Perhaps this would keep the current cost of the AFBs if you think the above rule should increase their cost.

95

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

mahon wrote:
go0gleplex wrote:

Fire control for AFB's is knocked out.  Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...

Several ways to figure that one out easily.  Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.

Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.

well, if you want you can agree that armor plating can be damaged too - enough extra armor is blown off that it no longer serves its purpose...

as for multiples - treat each one like a single entry. so three carrier upgrades would be treated like three single upgrades. each one can be damaged separately.

I don't put in multiple carrier upgrades.  I figure out all the carrier space needed and design the ship having one carrier entry.  So your proposal fails to handle people designing ships in that manner.

Perhaps using S:X's 1D6 units damaged, you could multiply 1D6 x 50 for amout of carrier space damaged, although it really doesn't matter most of the time as the fighters and seekers are probably already launched and recovery never seems to have any importance in the games I've played.

96

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

go0gleplex wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

So what happens when you have more special equipment than hull?  What about multiples of the same thing, such as Anti-Fighter Batteries, Teleporters, Marines?  How is Carrier space damaged?  Can Armor Plating be damaged?  The inherent launching and recovery capability of a ship is not listed, so how does that get damaged?  How do you repair these things?

Fire control for AFB's is knocked out.  Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...

Several ways to figure that one out easily.  Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.

Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.

It isn't that easy.

So ALL the AFBs are knocked out in one hit?    They do fire separately, not as one battery.  All the marines are dead in one hit?

No, it's better as it than being that drastic.

S:X had 1d6 losses for some systems, which is what I foresee could be done for this system.  But I raise the point because it seems to be overlooked with all the proposals so far.

97

(41 replies, posted in Starmada)

So what happens when you have more special equipment than hull?  What about multiples of the same thing, such as Anti-Fighter Batteries, Teleporters, Marines?  How is Carrier space damaged?  Can Armor Plating be damaged?  The inherent launching and recovery capability of a ship is not listed, so how does that get damaged?  How do you repair these things?

Inari7 wrote:

Wow sounds like fun,

What does Inverted ROF do?

.............Doug

Disobey every scientific law known to man?   :wink:

(I hate them)

99

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

underling wrote:

Or...
You all could play with smaller ships with fewer weapons.
But if you insist on playing with 20+ ships per side, each with 53 hull boxes and 20+ weapons with multiple dice capabilities, then you get what you get.

53 hull?   We, who make and play larger ships compared to everyone else, haven't even gone that far.  (the B10 should be a 30 hull ship, no?)  8)

Richard, stop salivating.  big_smile

100

(42 replies, posted in Starmada)

Parduz wrote:

I've played it with the same 2 friends (and some more occasionally) each sunday afternoon for 3 years.... until we've discovered somewhat more interesting to do with girls lol

"girls"?  What company makes that game?   I searched the shelves of my local game store and did not find such a game.  I asked the manager about it and all he did was laugh for quite some time. 

big_smile