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mj12games.com/forum → Posts by Nahuris
I think we de-railed this thread....
Let's get back to working on ideas for shields. Anyone else want to jump in?
John
Each of the players in my group uses a different designation for thier own fleets.... the one player mentioned refers to his ships as "destroyers" and has that listed as his heaviest class... above cruisers, ect.
For me, frigates are usually around hull 6 or so... I have a light frigate that is a 5, and heavy and battle frigates at 7 and 8 respectively..... but usually use the hull 6 ones.
my fleet from lightest to heaviest:
Corvettes Hulls 1-5
Frigates Hulls 5-7
Destroyers Hulls 7-8
Cruisers Hulls 8-12
Carriers, and Battle Cruisers Hulls 12-16
Dreadnoughts Hulls 15-18
I rarely field anything larger than 18....
this is subjective to the role of the ship..... certain hull sizes (such as 5, which has both a corvette class, and a light frigate class) have more than one design class.
My frigates and destroyers form the backbone of my fleet, corvettes fill in for strike roles, and cruisers support, and bring heavy firepower to bear. The larger classes are too "expensive" for there to be many, so you see them in extremely large battles..... and rarely at other times.... but they are not usually present in every battle. Dreadnoughts are only sent in when there is a major objective, as my alliance only has 5 of them, and 2 are listed as permanent guard over our capital, and one is permanent guard for our major shipyard and production system. With only 2 available, and having 14 worlds..... well, they get out occasionally, but not everywhere.
John
I know... however, the stern chase is really the only scenario that completely negated the bonuses with his designs.... and he usually just turned around and tried to turn it into a slugging match. :roll:
There are ways to counter it... but it involved having to design a fleet specifically to counter it.....
I'm more hoping we can increase some of the survivability of "standard" designs, so that tactics can come into play. The ability to send some "frigates" to take damage, and hold the enemy in place, while you bring up other ships is good.... but if those frigates die in one turn, then you haven't done much other than sacrifice part of your fleet, while handing your opponent victory points.
Any stern chase then becomes messy.... unless both fleets decide to keep their ships together, which is a slugging match, then the person fleeing ends up with his light fast ships ahead of his slower, heavier designs. The same applies to the chaser..... which puts his smaller ships up against the opponents heavier designs. If the player trying to flee does happen to use more fire arcs, then he has the advantage of heavier designs able to hammer his light pursuers.
John
I like the idea of "ablative shields", it allows you to both simulate the effects you see in Star Wars, and Star Trek, especially as used in the novels. Both of those sources have added quite a bit to the genre, and being able to simulate battles from those sources, as well as simular universes would be just awesome. For that matter, we could also add a weapon ability "extra shield damage" to augment "ignores shields" or "halves shields" as a means of damaging enemy ships.
I don't want to over complicate the game, but I have noticed (at least in my games) that most of the battles were tending to get larger and larger in points, but with the same number of ships.... people were building larger and larger hulls to have ships survive the head on attacks we were seeing. One player even went so far as to create hull 18 - 20 ships with all the weapons in the AB arcs, and screens so that he could concentrate his shields foward (also, he uses a low movement value, and keeps near his starting point... making you rush his guns), and then he would just advance on you. Unfortunately, due to the nature of damage, anything under hull 12 or so was getting turned into paste, and it was extremely hard to get a ship to survive enough to exploit his weaknesses..... or if they did survive, they were crippled enough to make it hard to effectively do any real damage. He would have most of his ships in a line, with a couple in a second line set to cover the front line...... ships do not block line of sight, so his front line pummels you, and his second line mops up.
The tactic can be countered with large numbers of fighters, drones, battle-satellites, and sun bursts.... but requires you to know what you are facing, and have a fleet taylored to counter his. He was one of the reasons we divided up the die rolls, as I mentioned in other posts, which lowers the damage capabilities across the board, and increases the surviveabiliy of the smaller hulls.
Ablative Shields and Armor would just serve to increase the surviveability of ships, and make maneuver that much more important.
I'd like to pursue this line of thought, even if it doesn't go anywhere, as I believe that maneuver should be at least half the battle, and I also feel that the smaller hulls should be a little more than just "escort ships" designed to suck off the fire long enough for the dreadnoughts to kill things. They should be able to add to the overall battle, and even provide the flanking strikes, or support at the right time, to turn the battle.
John
I'd also love to add an idea making shields a little different from screens, but still allow the directional shielding. Right now, in order to gain one additional shield rating on one facing, you lose 3 on the opposite side. I would propose allowing a ship to permanently move up to 3 levels of shielding...
This would simulate the Klingon tendancy to have strong foward shields for their strafe style attacks.... i.e. a ship pays for a shield 3, but has a rating of 4 on the 3 foward arcs, but only 2 on the 3 aft arcs....It would also make maneuvering important, as the ships would need to set up for their runs, and keep themselves from being swarmed, or caught in a bad position.... it would also allow a ship to move maybe one shield rating... in the same example having a 4 in the foward arc, 3 on the side arcs, and a 2 aft.....
This would, of course, be declared before the battle, and could not be moved around once the fighting started, although ships could then use the normal strengthen shields option, with the limitations as normal.
John
I like the idea... for that matter, I've been working on ideas for some of the torpedoes that you see in games like Freespace 2, and Starlancer. Large heavy Torps that everyone fears, but they can be shot down with interceptors... if they can get there fast enough.......
I'd love to add the concept of a tracking weapon system.... just not entirely sure how to do so.
John
Only one player in our group likes overthrusters... The way we handle it is it gives him an extra hex-side of turn during his mid movement turn, or instead of a one hex facing change at the end of movement, he can have two. As a help with the movement system, we allow all ships to adjust their facing one hexside in either direction for figuring fire arcs (assumes that they were using thrusters to shift slightly while moving). With overthrusters, you can either force a ship into a tighter turn, or bring your weapons to bear a bit easier...... so far, it works for us, although if someone has a better idea, please put it up.
John
The only problem with this poll is that there IS a great sucking sound involved in wargaming..... it comes from my wallet....LOL.
Never enough cash to go around, and get the figs I want.
John
FT cinematic for me too.
John
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Unfortunately, I got into this hobby at about the time the B5Wars was dying.....but I would love to see this going.
I would love to help in any way that I can.... but am limited in knowledge to what I can find on the web....
But if someone needs typing up of fluff, or general paperwork done, I'm in.
John
Sorry about the double post....
The heyday of Wargaming started in the 70's.... and we are still in it, there are new technologies coming out (the unique flying bases from With Hostile Intent), and new rules and ideas are coming out all the time.
I don't even think we have hit the peak yet..... but it is one awesome climb.
John
Ok... this one tends to be a heated subject...
Painting... not a lot of people enjoy it, so the pre-painted figs are great. Me personally, I like to scratch-build all of my figs...... different things for different people. Historical games.... um, let's see..... if I remember right, didn't the French LOSE Waterloo? Ok, so what next... you recreate a battle, with the exact same army and replay the exact same moves.... Um and what? Imagine this, you get the same results, which may amuse our esteemed author who has been spoken of above.. but tends to bore the living daylights out of me. What happens if due to a fluke of die rolling, the French win? A very few of the players that I have known who play Nappies (and yes, I tried it, until the rules lawyers, and history lawyers got into the third argument in as many turns) would freak..... between the THAT CAN"T HAPPEN crowd, and the WE NEED TO FIX THE RULES TO KEEP IT ACURATE crowd.... there is no real reason to play.
I play Starmada for the fact that it is NOT a historical game. There is no pre-set winner.... no one side that is known historically to have won this engagement....ect. When I and my friends sit down, we know that the rules and fleets are not pre-disposed for one side to win.... I'm allowed to actually think... not follow a pre-set battle plan. Of course... if you are playing the French at Waterloo... why would you bother to put your figs on the table...... your battle plan is flawed, you are not allowed to change it (might upset the history lawyers), nor are you allowed to think (might upset the rules lawyers).
Maybe our esteemed (or should we say, ignorant) author above, should attempt an original thought.... it might actually surprise him. As for the rest of us, if you ever happen to be in my neck of the woods, bring a fleet..... and we'll see how we do....LOL. I don't care if they are pre-painted, paper markers, or leggos with designations scratched into them..... I say, let's have some fun, get to know each other as friends, and have a cold one when we are done.
John
Sorry about the extra post.... but here is the link for The Great Machine..... meant to put it in the earlier post.
http://planetside.firenebula.com//
Enjoy !!
John
I look at most of the same things that you look at, and a few more besides.... One of the things you would probably enjoy is in the first couple of issues of The Great Machine online magazine written by Tyrel Lore. Yes, the magazine is primarily in support of the B5Wars game, but he wrote a wonderful article on how to create races, and design ships for them.....
Currently, I am working with my group.... we are creating a starmap, each player is an admiral tasked with defending the borders of their own region, and expanding influence. They each get a set amount of ships and support stuff, but they deploy it as they want. We are using a number of house rules that seem to be working fine, and with the exception of one player.... everyone is in a position of having to decide which ships are heading out to attack, and which ones are remaining to defend planets and bases. The one player came up with a concept of a pirate / slaver force that uses large, barely mobile bases instead of planets..... she spends most of her time moving through uninhabited systems, and trying to scout out other fleets and capture ships and slaves..... Of course, those with planets get so many CR points at certain times, and can use them to purchase replacement ships, fighters, or bases. Ships are repaired on a base cost.... dependent on the overall hull size of the ship, and time.... so many turns listed as under repair. So far, it is working, but time will tell if it will work.
John
Taunton, Massachusetts.
Same state as Cape Cod... East Coast of US.
I used to live in New Bedford as a teenager.....LOL
John
There were some size 16 ships in there.... however, once you got into close range, they went down quite quickly.... Low tech ships require some different thinking.... for one thing, don't expect blistering speeds, and the second, fighters do a number on them.
John
We tried it once, and once the ships got into close proximity..... everyone went down fast. It's one of the reasons that we have been experimenting with the rules that I posted in the new equipment threads. I meant to just post about the torpedoes.... but the rest just sort of came out.
John
We've been experimenting with some other ideas as well.... we broke out PDS, Shield, and Armor rolls, and put them against specific die......
PDS is rolled against the to hit dice.... Then PEN is rolled against shields as normal, and then we roll armor against each damage die. ..... So, if I was fired on by a weapon that was 3/2/2.... and 2 shots hit, I would roll a PDS against each die.... let's say one gets through, he rolls those 2 die against my shields, and both penetrate, I would then roll 4 die and each 5 or 6 would remove a damage die.....
We also are only allowing the players to use 2 defense systems per ship (and pushing for all the ships in the fleet to be the same). This actually allows us to simulate ships from movies and tv series..... For example, if your ships were modeled off the B5 earth fleet, you would get PDS and armor. We found that this allows the smaller ships to truly contribute to the fight, at least more than just sucking up damage in the first few turns while our capital ships slug it out..... although right now, we are also contemplating giving armor a 50/50 chance of protecting, using the same 1-3-5 roll as PDS. Since the highest number of dice used in shooting are invariably the damage dice (all the multipliers end there... a 3/3/3 weapon can possible result in 27 damage die) it works, even with armor only costing 5% of the total SU.
Finally, we are also only allowing each die of damage to actually harm one item... for example, I roll a hit that is HEQ on the chart.... I would roll an extra die and 1-2 is the H hit, 3-4 is the E, and 5-6 is the Q....
It does add a number of extra dice rolls, but also allows us to play interesting battles with smaller fleets, and scenarios where the fleets don't have to be perfectly even to be fair.
Finally, fighters no longer halve shields.... instead, they can ignore PDS, as they can fly in under the flak guns (or what have you) and drones auto penetrate shields (as torpedoes). Armor is proof against everything, so all the components of the ship get the benefit of that extra protection on the outside of the hull.
The only thing we are looking at right now is heavier drones.... A class, same as current, B class do 2 damage, but cost 1.5 times normal, and C class... double cost and 3 damage.
On fighters, you have to designate whether your wings are interceptor or bomber wings.... interceptors don't have the weapons to damage capital ship hulls, but are really good at knocking out torpedoes and bombers, and doing other damage (engines, shield generators, and turrets), and bombers can damage capital ship hulls, but usually do not fair that well against interceptors.
This is all still experimental, and we've only just finished laying it out on paper and trying a couple of quick battles to see how it works.... As we playtest it more, we'll definitely let everyone know how it works.
John
P.S. With the new torpedoes, we have pretty much eliminated the expendable weapons, but it doesn't yet seem to be a problem.
Let's just say that I didn't get any more insane, than I started.....LOL
John
I know.... when mine were small..... those were life savers... not to mention sanity protectors.
Nahuris
Biggest flaw I've seen with the idea of banked weapons is that a couple of lucky hits can leave you with entire fields of space an enemy can move through, where you can't fire.... for example, you have your weapons set in banks to either side, and lose one.... you now have a defenseless ship if the enemy comes in on that side... and with Starmada's ability to choose what specific weapons you lose in a battery, we've found that people tend to choose the weapon that has no bearing at the moment anyways. You would find players taking a hit on the Starboard side, but deciding that the Port weapon bank is damaged, so that they can keep returning fire.
The Phaser Strip question has come up a couple of times in our group. One of our players is an avid Trek fan, and thinks that the Intrepid class is the ultimate star ship ever developed. Because of this, we ended up basically making the phaser strips into multiple phasers, but since we use both the standard ABCDEF fire arcs and the 123456 arcs, we just make multiple phasers each only firing into single arcs, and use the overlapping arcs. That was to simulate the couple of shows, where you see a strip damaged, but still firing out of the undamaged section. Some phasers fire into the A arc, some into the 1 or 2 arc, ect. It works quite well at simulating the all around fire you see from the trek ships, and keeps things within the rules for the game, while allowing you to concentrate fire, or fire off into different targets as needed. Give it a try and let me know if it works for anyone else.
The hardest problem we had with Trek ships, was the Torpedoes.... one player wants to make them into drones, to simulate the range, and the other player wants them to be range 18 with high PEN and DMG to simulate the impact they do.......
Dan, what would be the chance of coming up with heavier Drones.... Something to simulate the really heavy torpedoes in games such as Starlancer, Freespace, and Wing Commander. They have a really long range, but can be intercepted via fighters..... and also ship based weaponry.... as in the movie Star Wreck. During the initial salvo of Torps from the P-fleet, a lot of them were shot down, either from defensive guns on the ships, or via fighters. Of course, the ones that made it through, did do considerable damage..... taking out a Whitestar in one hit.
Anyways... time to take off to work
John
I've been doing something similar with my light spinal mounts.... I've taken a hull 4 ship and equipped it with a spinal mount... range based on the hull size, but then I have it listed twice as a "light spinal mount" having an extra Q hit when figuring into the hit location table. Each one does only 2 damage..... and I envision them as the fixed lasers...ala Babylon 5.
In a lot of ways, this gives you the equivelent of a 4th weapon battery, with a fixed arc.... with the least changes to the basic system.... so you don't have to worry too much about creating an error and it unbalancing things....
John
I've always viewed it on economy... few space empires have the funds and shipyards to put out hordes of huge battleships..
In addition, with almost no exceptions.... most militaries tend to evaluate a situation, and use just enough resources to handle the situation. That's the criteria that I use to design my fleets, ect.
John
Ok.... now we are in a new area of game development.......LOL
John
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