Topic: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

On Monday we played two games of Starmada at Gaming Glen's store in Davie, Fla.  We gave anti-fighter batteries the option to fire before a ship is attacked by fighters/ect, after the flight moves next to the target ship.  (AFBs can only fire Once per turn).  My dad had three flights of 6-fighters attack one of my nephew's smaller ships.  The ship had 17 anti fighter batteries and the fighters had level two shields.  The AFBs fired first, but with bad rolls and the level 2 shields on the fighters, only two fighters were shot down.  We have used this before and it is Not game wrecking.  I believe it is more realistic, because that is how AA fire worked in WW2, and would work now.  Also, this option is similiar to the option some Klingon drones have to fire at attacking drones first in ADD mode.  I still haven't put any AFBs on my ships yet.  I prefer to shoot  down fighters, etc. at range, before they can close, with the secondary battery all my ships have:
Laser Cannon 1/3+/1/1,range=18, no SAs; my ships have Fire Control. 
If their are no hostile fighters, these laser cannon can fire at hostile ships.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

It seems ok, especially as it doesn't appear to be used because of a lack efficiency. I'd like to add 'AFB may fire just before fighters are firing', i.e. we suppose some fighters could already be in position to fire without moving during that turn.
Also, I would like to point out that the anti-fighter trait could be modified.
Currently, it just removes the fighter malus when firing at them. Why don't we allow weapons with anti-fighter trait to fire as above, before fighters are attacking? To compensate that, the anti-fighter trait works only this way. You can't benefit if firing at long range at fighters during the regular fire phase.

Otherwise, I'm still convinced something should be done to reduce the power of fighters, especially in order to reduc e their price and make them more easily available. But that's another story. smile

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

A suggestion for the anti-fighter trait and for AFB.
Whenever a fighter attacks a ship, any anti-fighter weapon or AFB on that ship may fire at this fighter before its attack. Attack is done normally.
On the other hand, the anti-fighter trait (the trait, not the weapon) may not be used against fighters in another instance. That weapon can fire normally at fighter at 'long-range' (ie, not in adjacent hex) but without the anti-fighter trait.

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I really hope this gets some attention in the new version of Starmada!  Ships should have some sort of anti-fighter defense that goes off immediately before the fighter gets to attack - especially considering how strikers and seekers work.  I'd be fine and dandy if you couldn't get other types of direct fire weapons that were "anti-fighter" - I think they take away work from interceptors anyways!

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I've always been of that opinion.  I suspect it won't change.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

IMHO, the ability to fire at incoming fighters/strikers/seekers, etc., not only muddles the normal phasing of events, it also creates problems of tracking which weapons have already fired in the current Fighter Phase.

OTOH, the new edition might just address some of these concerns... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

As long as anti-fighter weapons just behave as anti-fighter weapons... smile

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

cricket wrote:

OTOH, the new edition might just address some of these concerns... smile

Can't wait to see what you've done!

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

Marauder wrote:
cricket wrote:

OTOH, the new edition might just address some of these concerns... smile

Can't wait to see what you've done!

Ditto!

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

cricket wrote:

OTOH, the new edition might just address some of these concerns... smile

Hmmm, I asked but they didn't have much to say about it
[attachment=0]New Ed.png[/attachment]
But they did sound surprisingly good!

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I knew there was a reason I didn't want to allow photos...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I am curious, how would lettting antifighter batteries fire before fighters/strikers/ or seakers attack cause significant problems?  As they work now, firing after these units attack AFBs are simply not worth their cost IMHO.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

According to Daniel, and I tend to agree with him, you can lose track of which weapon has shot or not during the fire phase. There can be some solutions to that:
- Prohibit weapons with the anti-fighter trait to fire during the fire phase and allow them to fire during the fighter phase (before the fighter's attack), and reduce the multiplier of that trait. BTW, it seems that currently, it is better to give a better ACC than to give the anti-fighter trait, and the ACC works with everything.
- Prohibit the AFB to fire during the fire phase and allow them to fire dbefore the fighter's attack.

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

We have house-ruled letting AFBs fire before fighters/strikers/seekers attack, but after each squadron has moved.  If a any fire, a dot is made on the ship's SSD.  It has Not proved difficult to keep trick of how many AFBs have fired.  8-) 
None of the people I game with have the Weapon Trait "Anti-Fighter" on any of their weapons because we don't think it is worth the cost.  Fire control is better and more useful overall.  All my ships, even the small PFs, have Fire Control.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

Late to the party on this one, but absolutely agree. AF weapons may fire at adjacent fighters (only) immediately prior to the fighters firing.

As for tracking difficulty, I think that's partly a function of the notation used to track ship information. IMO Starmada could use something more like SSD's from Star Fleet Battles.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

Daniel Berger wrote:

Late to the party on this one, but absolutely agree. AF weapons may fire at adjacent fighters (only) immediately prior to the fighters firing.

Officially, you should say 'should fire prior' instead of 'may fire prior'. But I agree with you, AFB should be useful before the fighters are able to shoot down ships.

As for tracking difficulty, I think that's partly a function of the notation used to track ship information. IMO Starmada could use something more like SSD's from Star Fleet Battles.

There is a simple solution. Disallow AFB to fire at ships. You should remember easily if those AFB have fired on fighters or not during the fighter phase. After that, you just have to forget them.

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

madpax wrote:

There is a simple solution. Disallow AFB to fire at ships. You should remeber easily if those AFB have fired on fighters or not during the fighter phase. After that, you just have to forget them.

Spot on.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

madpax wrote:

As for tracking difficulty, I think that's partly a function of the notation used to track ship information. IMO Starmada could use something more like SSD's from Star Fleet Battles.

There is a simple solution. Disallow AFB to fire at ships. You should remember easily if those AFB have fired on fighters or not during the fighter phase. After that, you just have to forget them.

Actually, I was thinking of the AF trait when I said that, not AFB's. Oops. But I agree, don't allow AFB's to fire at ships.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

If the problem is to remember whether weapons has fired or not on fighters (ie during the fighter phase), then maybe we should treat anti-fighter weapons as anti-fighter batteries. AFAIK, the AF trait is not really efficient. Giving a weapon a better ACC is cheaper than giving it the AF trait, and the ACC works against all. Prohibiting AF weapons to fire only during the fighter phase would render those weapons near usuless against an opponent without fighters. So having weapons with the AF trait may be a not so good idea, and maybe the new edition will resolve the problem.

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

Perhaps the solution is to give weapons with the AF trait the OPTION to fire after fighters/strikers/seekers have moved, but before the flight attacks.  If their are are no fighters or if the weapons with AF don't fire in the fighter phase, they can fire in the regular starship combat phase. 
This would make weapons with AF more similiar to WW2 dual-purpose weapons such as the USA's 5"/38 guns.  These guns could fire in AA mode at aircraft or at ships.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

BeowulfJB wrote:

Perhaps the solution is to give weapons with the AF trait the OPTION to fire after fighters/strikers/seekers have moved, but before the flight attacks.  If their are are no fighters or if the weapons with AF don't fire in the fighter phase, they can fire in the regular starship combat phase.

That's what I thought was decided already. Anyway, I think that's a good way to go.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I thought about it but Daniel said that you have to remember which AF weapons has or hasn't fired. Of course, usually, it's easy to say (do they have adjacent fighters or no)?

Marc

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

I guess with the new vwesion of Starmada coming just around the corner, this discussion could become irrelevant.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

BeowulfJB wrote:

I guess with the new vwesion of Starmada coming just around the corner, this discussion could become irrelevant.

Yeah.  I get the feeling that since this is one of the longest-standing / most discussed complaints with AE, it may be a priority fix.  I have a suspicion that they'll do it by rolling fighter firing into standard firing (ie, move ships, move fighters, then alternate activating a unit, firing all its stuff, and applying damage immediately), but no real evidence.

Re: Anti-fighter batteries firing Before fighters, etc.

If there were to be a change so that AF batteries & AF trait weapons could fire in the fighter phase, I would prefer that they be made "Fighter Exclusive" and only fire in the fighter phase. If you want a dual purpose weapon, make it dual mode, AF mode and non-AF mode.