2,501

(39 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

I think you and I may just have to agree to disagree at this point.  Space or not, I simply cannot become comfortable with any game where ships may, in the time it takes for the typical weapon to recycle, move from outside of even the most extended engagement range to point blank, or beyond.

Two reasons why I think you might be worrying too much:

1) Remember that Starmada is played under artificial constraints -- i.e., the game board itself. Any ship that accelerates to the point where it can move from maximum weapons range to point-blank in a single move will end up flying off the opposite edge of the board, thus being "destroyed" itself.

2) A ship that does such a "Picard Maneuver" cannot surprise the enemy and destroy it unawares -- while firing at point-blank range, it is itself vulnerable to return fire.

This isn't to say that you are "wrong" -- there's no such thing. smile

Your preference is for wet-navy type engagements, with big ships firing big guns at each other -- that's great. I happen to lean more towards inertial/vector movement (for space gaming, anyway). But if both systems can be supported within the game, I consider that impressive...

2,502

(39 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

I mean... you could set a speed limit of, say... 30 hexes per turn and define this as light speed. This suggests a scale for Starmada -- something that has been avoided to date. Assuming a scale of 10,000km per hex, then one round is one second... 30 hexes per round = 300,000 km per round = light speed.

If you're going to be "realistic" and set an upper limit as "light speed", then you need to account for other stuff, like mass increasing as the ship approaches "c", time dilation, etc.

And that's just silly. smile

Marcus Smythe wrote:

And the scale of combat Beowulf discusses is outside my normal experience.  My current navy boasts a 400 point, 12 'hull' (8 hull box, 6 ablat) heavy cruiser that is usually a ship of the line.  I have some trouble wrapping my head around the leviathans.

Too true.

I'd be happy if we still capped hull sizes at 12, like in the first versions of the game. smile

Marcus Smythe wrote:

-blink blink-
20?
:shock:

Well, that's not all that much, all things considered... with existing Armor Plating, that 24-hull ship goes up to an effective 36.

I expect that in such... quantity, ablative armor will prove very valuable, probably moreso than its cost.  I can't anticipate your opponent will be able to punch out that much ablat in a single turn, so umm.. yeah.

But remember, the ship is point-costed as if those 20 armor points are 16.7 extra hull hits -- so it's the same as if the ship had 40+ hull for Combat Rating purposes.

I really hope to try it myself soon, but I don't think it's gonna be a huge game-breaker...

Marcus Smythe wrote:

1.)  In scenarios where ships have trouble hurting each other quickly, ablative armor is on the cheap side.

2.)  In scenarios where ships kill each other rapidly, ablative armor is under-effective for the cost.

Not that I doubt your results, but I am intrigued that there is a difference. As "pseudo-hull", the effectiveness of ablative armor should not depend upon other factors... :?:

1.)  Does the 'Organic Hull' system work to repair Ablative Armor? (I assume no)
2.)  How would a system, similar to 'Organic Hull', but only functioning to repair ablative armor, be properly costed?  (I guesstimate at 1.5, or half the modifer of Organic Hull)

1) No.

2) I wouldn't.

2,506

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

Rich Bowman just asked me if this poll is closed; he wanted to vote in it, but it just shows him the results instead...

No, it's not closed. But I don't believe Mr. Bowman's membership is active at the moment... I will try to fix that.

2,507

(54 replies, posted in Defiance)

tnjrp wrote:
smokingwreckage wrote:

Now, how do I upload it??

IIRC you aren't allowed to use any document attachments any more, because the feature was found to be hacker bait. So it's just as with most every forum: you'll need a hosting site for the doc. Justin probably has some bandwidth to let, and if not, I do.

Indeed. However, I would be happy to upload it, if you e-mail it to me.

2,508

(39 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

I thought that the need for such a chart would detract from the simplicity and elegance of the system; prehaps the Thrust-to-Turn = Speed argument is a better way to go here? Not sure; movement would lose that unpredictability factor pretty quick, that is for sure.

I would agree that charts = bad. However, I don't see why TURN COST = SPEED means that movement becomes unpredictible... ? It just means that ships aren't going to want to go too fast, otherwise they won't be able to turn at all -- which is in effect limiting your range of movement to your current engine rating, just like in the standard movement system, without actually legislating against faster speeds.

2,509

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

However... I am going to be testing is a "pseudo-Full-Thrust" movement system I call "SIMS" (Simple Inertia-based Movement System). I should have a full report of its effects on the game after this weekend...

Gosh, KDL... how does that system work? (In another thread, please... smile )

2,510

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

And if you choose "other...", please explain. smile

2,511

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

Just wondering... do you typically use the standard Starmada movement system, the Starmada vector system (Appendix D), some other non-vectored movement system, or some other vector-type movement system?

2,512

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

As far as costing it... I agree with Marcus: the payback should be less than the gain. You cannot have a weapon that fires once in 20 rounds ... but fires a "map killer shot" when it does without having trouble. One way of mitigating this, without mucking up the calculations, is to state that, at the start of the game, a weapon with a "delay" factor cannot fire until turn X, where X is the delay factor.

I'm not a big fan of this. If I'm going into battle, I'm making durn sure the tubes are loaded and capacitors are charged...

A better way to handle this would be to (a) cap the recharge rate at 3, so that you aren't taking a "fires once in a million turns" restriction and (b) point cost it with the assumption that you will fire it (or have the opportunity to do so) in the first turn.

e.g., as described, a recharge-2 weapon has a "FIRE-delay-delay-FIRE" pattern, or two shots in four turns. 2/4 = 50%. By this logic, a recharge-1 weapon would have a factor of 2/3, or 67%.

2,513

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Thought:  Make ships less nimble.  Not slower.. less nimble.  Its realtively easy to build a ship (6 thrust) that can pull a 180 in a single turn.  If ships were a bit more clumsy at the helm, then there would be a greater risk of ending up with enemies outside of your AB arcs and closing fast... raising the need for off-arc weapons.

Any vector-type movement will have this effect, and likely encourage CD arcs over the others...

2,514

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

2.)  Hmm.. cant justify buying the Compendium, now that I have brigade, but I'd like to see that article.

I have uploaded the relevant pages from the Compendium:

www.mj12games.com/tactics.pdf

2,515

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

Let me preface this by saying I'm just spitballing, here. I am NOT advocating that this be a core part of Starmada -- but it might be interesting to explore when simulating certain universes.

The reason why power was never an issue in Starmada is that I thought it odd that ships would be built with more stuff than could be powered at once under optimum conditions. I still think that is a valid argument against power allocation -- but what if conditions are less than optimum?

In this system, a ship would start with a number of power points (PPs) equal to the following:

((SHIELDS + ENGINES) * HULL) + WEAPONS

For example, Admirable (hull 8 ) has 5 engines and 3 shields, plus 10 weapons. She therefore begins with 74 PPs.

Next, divide this by the number of hull points and round down (e.g., Admirable has 74 PPs; divided by hull 8 results in 9). This is the number of PPs lost per hull hit. Thus, if Admirable took 2 hull hits, she would have 56 PPs remaining (74 - 18 ).

When writing movement orders, each ship must also have its PPs split between movement, attack, and defense:

MOVEMENT = Each MP requires a number of PPs equal to the ship's (starting) hull size.

ATTACK = Each PP allows the ship to fire one weapon.

DEFENSE = Each shield point requires a number of PPs equal to the ship's (starting) hull size.

A ship cannot power any system more than its current capacity -- thus, if a ship has been reduced to 5 MPs, any power beyond what is necessary to gain 5 MPs is wasted.

This ignores special equipment, which would complicate things a bit...

Whaddaya think?

2,516

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

cricket wrote:

Aside from giving the different firing arcs varying costs, I can't see how to avoid this. For example:

A/B = 3
C/D = 2
E/F = 1

Thus, a weapon that fires into the AB arc would cost three times as much as an EF weapon, and 20% more than an AC or BD weapon.

As I think more on this, I don't hate it.

But there is the problem that, if we make the EF arcs too cheap in relationship to AB, ships will load up on rear-firing arcs and just fly backwards into combat. wink

2,517

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

underling wrote:

I have always felt that Grand Fleets has much more of that than Starmada. In the games of Starmada that I have played and/or watched, the decision making from turn to turn just isn't that important.
Maybe it's just been the particular ship designs used in those games.
I don't know.
But maneuvering just hasn't been that important.

It's odd you should say that, as I have always felt that Grand Fleets is the same basic game as "vanilla" Starmada (i.e., without weapon abilities and/or equipment). The ONLY thing that is in Grand Fleets that is not in Starmada is the need for formations/command structures. Perhaps that's what makes you feel like GF is more about maneuver.

2,518

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

KDLadage wrote:

The number of choices made by the commander -- in the game phase -- is limited to "where do I move?" and "whom do I shoot?" And this is about it.

One point I'd like to make before getting into specifics -- and you reference this as well, in saying "a game like Starmada" -- is that these are issues that face ALL miniatures wargames, with few exceptions.

But the bulk of your firepower is wrapped up in ships that are moving slowly enough that accurate predictions of movement are highly likely.

True. One potential fix with little (if any) potential to break the game would be to change the formula for engine size to (SU/100)^1.3*2 instead of *3.

If an enemy is in range -- fire! Always. Never hold back. Never wait for a better shot, because if the better shot comes, you can shoot him again.

We're getting into areas where the "game vs. simulation" debate will rear its head. Obviously, we're not simulating anything with Starmada other than preconceived notions about what space combat should be like -- but as has been mentioned already, there is a close parallel with naval combat. And there it depends upon what era of wet-navy you're talking about -- WW1 and WW2 battlefleet clashes don't need to worry about ammo. Modern navies do, but that's because ships are nothing more than missile and aircraft platforms. Starmada (at its default) is clearly more aligned with the former than the latter.

When I have shields in the game, I have universal, omni-directional shields that come down at a uniform rate. In other words, not via design nor via battle damage will I ever have a weak side of the ship that needs to be protected above and beyond the others.

An optional rule that ranks the shield rating of each "hex side" separately would be easy to implement.

The game treats any and all arcs as equal. And this is demonstratably not true.

Aside from giving the different firing arcs varying costs, I can't see how to avoid this. For example:

A/B = 3
C/D = 2
E/F = 1

Thus, a weapon that fires into the AB arc would cost three times as much as an EF weapon, and 20% more than an AC or BD weapon.

However, if anything, the gaming world has proven that it can strike a balance between simplicity and depth without becoming too complex. For example: Chess.

One glaring problem with the analogy -- Chess is devoid of the chance/luck factor. In addition, players are limited to moving one piece at a time. So, the decision points is the same as in Starmada (where to move and whom to "attack"); it's just that your resource (time expressed in "moves") is finite.

Starmada, as a pseudo-simulation, really needs to allow all ships to move each turn. Even "command points" as in For the Masses would not work -- ships just don't sit and do nothing without orders.

Thinking about this further, I think what you're arguing for are "resources" of some kind -- for example, in SFB there's "power"; in Battletech, there's "heat"; in Jovian Chronicles/Heavy Gear, there's "actions".

I can see adding one or more of these as options -- but I hope you're not suggesting that the basic framework of Starmada should be changed?

Starmada is a good game. Starmada has the potential to become a great game if Dan wants to make it one. But he has to be willing to push the envelope a bit, and see how far the basic framework will let him go.

Hold your tongue! Starmada is a great game -- but it can be greater... smile

Dude... I may have to disable smilies if we don't get more responsible with their application.... big_smile

BeowulfJB wrote:

Whoops! All of my 'Compendium ships have banked weapons, and PDS w/level 3 shields. :shock:   
[Embarrassed Admiral Beowulf hides in command chair<LOL>] :wink:

I'm not saying you can't have them -- they're in the rulebook, so they are "legal". But I personally think they are overpowered, which is why they didn't make the transition to X.

Marcus Smythe wrote:

1.)  Must Reroll Penetration describes a weapon which is 'highly susceptible to shield interference', and notes that 'whenever one of the penetration dice gets through the targets shields' it must be rerolled.

<<snip>>

We accept that PDS applys to a weapon that 'Ignores Shields'.  Ergo, whatever PDS is, it is not shields, such that an Ignores Sheilds weapon does not ignore it.  (Is this correct?  It seemed clear to me at the time).

<<snip>>

Thoughts?

And herein lies the danger of trying to be all things to all people -- you end up with discussions about the technology of a particular system, rather than the game effects thereof.

The point of PDS was just to introduce a non-"shields" defense -- it actually was never intended to be used in concert with shields. In reality, it acts just like shields -- i.e., it blocks 50% of incoming fire, but as many have pointed out, it does so more efficiently and without the need to fear "Ignores Shields" weapon abilities.

Frankly, I would rank the introduction of PDS right below banked weapons on my list of things that should never have been tried. smile

2,521

(36 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

-thinks-  Can anyone think of times where there was actual synergy and an appropriate return on investment in separating your fleet?  Even with explosions cutting down the 'stack it all' tendancy, I cant think of any time in my games that I've (widely) separated elements on a battle map to advantage. (barring instances where on element was vulnerable carriers that had launched and were running, or that like).

Well, this may be a function of weapon ranges in Starmada -- there have occasionally been questions about whether longer-ranged weapons should be weighted more in the points value.

But... quoting from Hughes, "The tactical maxim of all naval battles is Attack effectively first." By virtue of having nothing else with which to compare, starship combat games have (almost) exclusively been analogous to naval warfare -- and as Tim Swenson pointed out in an essay published in the Compendium, Hughes' principles can be applied to great effect in Starmada.

Theoretically, there should be no reason to split your force. Practically, this is easier said than done -- at the very least, battle damage will require some dispersion. At the same time, you certainly don't want to allow your entire fleet to become immobile, as then you allow the enemy to take the initiative.

So, I've always felt it was important to have enough separation to allow me to dictate the timing and location of the first blow -- but grouped enough to prevent being destroyed in detail by the enemy.

2,522

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

BeowulfJB wrote:

And if "Ignores PDS " becomes official, and you encounter a ship with level 5 shields, again, you have wasted the extra CR.

Let's all remember -- "ignores PDS" is only official if you allow it to be.

Starmada -- made for tinkerin'. big_smile

2,523

(4 replies, posted in Grand Fleets)

dave-the-lost wrote:

Has there been anything happenng with the WW2 version?

I have a buddy who prefers WW2 to Great War for gaming.

Really? For naval gaming?

WW2 gets all complicated with aircraft carriers and submarines and stuff. Don't get me wrong, it's cool -- but GF is so very much about big ships and big guns! smile

(An aside: Kevin even wants to pretend torpedoes don't exist and just shoot the guns...)

There really isn't a "WW2 version", per se -- the rules are the same (even got a couple WW2 scenarios in the rulebook). We're looking at some more stuff for GF in the forseeable future, so if you've got specific requests, now might be the time.

2,524

(9 replies, posted in Iron Stars)

Damn. My list of things to work on just got bigger.

I need to make this my day job. smile

2,525

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Trying to figure out the appropriate cost for a system that ignores PDS.  Does anyone have any insight into how the cost for Ignores Shields was derived?

Concerns about the wisdom of "ignores PDS" as a weapon trait notwithstanding, I would use x1.5 as the modifier. (x2.5 for "ignores shields" is the average for each shield rating from 0 to 5; the average of PDS/No PDS is (2+1)/2 = 1.5)

Also, been considering an 'Anime' modifier for non-spinal mounts... either a 1.0 Modifier that makes the weapon act exactly like an anime spinal mount (AOE line, affected only by true range, fires every other turn, no fire 1st turn) or a 2.0 Modifier that doesnt do the 'every other turn' and 'no first turn' thing.

Would need playtesting, but sounds about right.

Other thoughts.. mounts that fire in the same phase as fighters... x2, given the fighter costing?

As good a start as any.