301 Reply by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

I also like the having one turn's worth of fighters in the air.

I just don't like the huge mass of fighters already in the air on the first turn........  One of my friends fielded 4 Star Destroyers in one game... and we ended up with 48 Wings of fighters attacking my ally's cruiser..... the result was extremely messy....LOL
And yes....... it was all in one turn....LOL (the Mon Calamari Cruiser rushed foward, while sending it's fighters off in a different direction.......)

To shorten the die rolls, the Mon Calamari player decided that his ship was dead........ to quote... " I messed up, here I was, but now..............I'm dead"

John

Go to forum: Starmada

302 Reply by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

I do see what you are saying about AA guns....... 

This one is tough... I want fighters to be a potent force, but not the horrible swarms of killer bees they can sometimes be...... and yet, I do not want fighters to be the expendible casualty..... like drones, as they do have pilots, and there should be some self reason they are on the field.


There are 2 schools of thought with this..... Star Wars and Star Trek.
A Star Destroyer in SW has 72 combat craft onboard... 12 bays to be specific... while a ST ship is unlikely to even have fighters........

I like seeing both schools on the table, as the different representations of various thoughts add so much to the game enjoyment......

Maybe we need to design an active AA system.... or give fighters a slightly different "evasive" ability.... if they take a -1 to hit, then everyone gets an additional -1 to hit them... but their movement is the same.


That would give the player the option of using his fighters to harrass the enemy, without any other issues.......

On a side note,  I was also thinking of having fighter weapons count as "no hull damage" vs. capital ships only.... the premise is that while they can target subsystems on a ship, they can't really do enough damage to destroy the hull.........

actually, that would boost bombers, making them the only fighter that can actually do hull damage to a capital ship........

These are ideas.... I'd like to flesh these out.

John

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303 Reply by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

How about bomber squads get one single shot with a range 6 "torpedo/bomb"  that is 1/2/2.  It would mean keeping a sheet for the bomber squadron..... but that shouldn't be a problem... and if you need to designate a hit on a bomber squadron, just roll a d6.... basically have a sheet numbered 1-6, and put a check for each bomber firing a torp.... later fire would be randomly rolled... to avoid the defending player sacrificing bombers that already fired....

Something like tactical Nukes.... but limited, so that bombers don't turn into major ship killers.

On a side note, I would make bombers a movement 8 or 9, and have them use a specific "bomber bay" to signify the fact that they cost a little more, and are tactical weapons, not generic fighters...... IMO

John

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304 Reply by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

I'm not saying nay on it.... just looking at it in the scope with everything else. Most of the issues we have run into were fixed with the change to the rule that fighters must be launched during game, not start on the board.

It adds strategic depth to the game to have to launch the fighters on game, rather than doing the mass charge on turn one.

We could possible consider that it is bombers that halve shields, and that fighters do not, or maybe subtract 1 from shield levels for the fighters......... It would make having bombers more deadly..... and keep the fighters out there to intercept other fighters, target drones and boarding pods, and watch for bombers..........


The high ROF weapons chewing up fighters also limits the ship deploying them......  They take up an entire weapon bank. They usually only have a range of 3, which means they aren't all that useful if there aren't any fighters on the field, or the fighters are used carefully.  Remember, fighters have a speed of 10, but they do not have to move 10 every turn..... you could have them get into position on one turn (outside of weapon range) rush in the next turn using evasive maneuvers (the rules do not state that fighters cannot use it) and then run away during the fighter phase the next turn........ At most, you have 1 turn to shoot at them, with modifiers of -2 (being fighters and evasive movement) and the next turn, they move before you can shoot again. If you use multiple wings at once...... it can get deadly.


This is not a slam on the current rules for the fighters. We actually like the as they are written, but were discussing it as well.  I like the greater depth that is possible with Starmada, and if we can do it without a whole bunch of rules, or die rolls, so much the better.

John

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305 Reply by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

We were both looking at the fact that

A) Fighters have their own phase of the combat turn, and their damage is applied before anyone gets to return fire on them....

B) They get really good movement, and they are re-usable turn after turn.... unlike drones.

C) They can roam the entire battlefield, unlike battle-satellites, and they carry a more potent damage capability with the halves shields ability.

D) They can start the game already on the board. This means that you can have 6 fighter bays, and not bother with launch bays.... and yet still have all 6 wings of fighters available on turn one.......

E) Capital ships get a -1 to hit fighters, and there is no option to declare a weapon as an anti-fighter weapon.... swapping the -1 vs. fighters for a -1 vs. capitals.

F) The only defense, other than having your own fighters, is the anti-fighter battery. It costs 10% of your SU, but only works 16% of the time, and only when the enemy rolls a one on the dice.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solutions that we use in our games..

The fighter phase is awesome.... but some things like shield loss and explosions, we have them go into effect at the end of the turn. Basically, the energy on the shield doesn't dissapate instantly, but gradually wears down. Reaching the new level at the end of the current turn....

Fighters must start launching after the game starts. At the beginning of Turn one, you may have 1 fighter flight on the board to represent the CAP (Combat Air Patrol) and launch the fighters at the end of the turn as standard... at the level of one plus one for each launch bay you have.

That's it so far.... we have discussed ways to make the anti-fighter batteries more pro-active, but haven't come up with a workable solution.... yet.

John

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306 Topic by Nahuris

(44 replies, posted in Starmada)

This is not a criticism..... more a curiousity.
Why are shields halved vs. fighters? The question was brought up in a phone conversation I had with a friend that is out of state, and he was curious.  He does not have internet access, but enjoys Starmada.......

However, he was looking at a recent game that he won, and he realized that his fighters are what almost destroyed the fleet he was facing. They would swoop in during the fighter phase, halve the opponts shields, destroy a bunch of stuff...... and then the crippled ship would receive fire form the other capital ships.

This is the situation that caused the question.....

Both he and his opponent were using screens instead of shields.

He had one fast destroyer (hull 6) and 3 wings of fighters attack an enemy carrier (hull 16)

The fighters swarmed in, and managed to hit the carrier from 3 different hexes (they hadn't designed the rof 3 anti-fighter weapons we have been discussing here). The carrier had an anti-fighter battery, but none of the fighters rolled a 1, so it had no effect. Neither player uses a point defense system, so the hits stood. During the damage, the carrier lost 7 hull, but more importantly, lost all but one remaining screen. Now, the destroyer got to fire, and finished all buy 1 hull point.

In one turn, a 16 hull carrier was rendered relatively inert due to a hull 6 destroyer, and a few fighters, and mostly due to the fighters.......
And mostly due to the fact that the fighters halved the shields..... alot of the pen rolls would not have made it without that.

SO........

We are asking why the decision was made to halve shields for fighters.

John

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307 Reply by Nahuris

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

That depends on a lot of factors.

(1) Starmada is a game of mutual agreed combat. All the players involved in a game agree to the battle, or it never happens.

Therefor, the Grav Well Generator is more of a plot device, rather than an offensive or defensive unit. Keeping the enemy in a location where they can shoot at you is not the best of tactics....... and I am not sure we want anything like the Grav Well Generator from Homeworld. In that game, the generators paralyze strike craft (fighters and corvettes.......). To me, that seems extreme, although I could see them adding a -1 modifier to fire, making it a good defensive measure against fighters. But only against fighters attacking the grav well equipped ship.  That would give it a defensive rating.....

In general, it would be something similar to a hyperdrive.... it effects the game, but only because we say it does.... we need hyperdrives, or these vast fleets would never get out of their own solar systems, and would never get the chance to battle. The grav-well generator is just a means of pulling a fleet out of space for a battle... basically park it in a know travel lane, and turn it on. Sooner or later, somone is bound to come along, and you get a fight..... 

Scenario: You have two fleets, where one has 2/3 of the points of the other. The larger fleet has one Interdictor. The smaller fleet was pulled out of hyperspace, and due to the situation, must get across the board, to get out of range of the grav well field, and make a run for it..... either that, or take out the ship with the generator, and then run for it.

As far as CR rating.... if it gives a benefit (-1 to hit for fighters shooting at the grav well ship, ect) then maybe 50 (like any other defense) If instead, it is a plot device, more like the hyperspace engine, then I don't see a need to assign a CR...... other than rare players, most of us want to go at it. 

John

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308 Reply by Nahuris

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

20% sounds reasonable.... or maybe, 20% per hull value in Hex range.

Hull 10 ship pays 20 percent and get a 10 hex range, 40 percent and gets 20 hexes, 60 percent gives 30 hexes ect....

Although that means you will probably only see them on large ships....

Maybe 1.5 times the hull in hexes range, or even double........ Would have to be something that is worked out carefully. We need it to be usable to add to the tactics, but we do not want it to totally dominate all the games.....

John

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309 Reply by Nahuris

(7 replies, posted in Wardogs)

I agree..... if I was a captain, I would have marines in spacesuits with rifles shooting.... if I had nothing else, and they had a chance of damaging anything.........

As to the shields, I like the idea.....it is just a new one for me.....LOL

What I could see would be the mechs, maybe walking around on the outside of the ship (maybe magnetic grapples in the feed, or small thrusters on the legs provideing thrust against the hull) and providing additional support, with maybe the ability to jump from one ship to another......ect.

What I have trouble fathoming is a Daishi (battletech) flying around chasing fighters, ect. It could be do-able......just something I am having an issue wrapping my mind around.....LOL

John

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310 Reply by Nahuris

(7 replies, posted in Wardogs)

Mechs with shields are a new one for me anyways.....

On the Mechs in space, I understand what you want, but there end up being some other issues when it comes to it.

Either the mechs can do incredible amounts of damage, and carry the same weapons as the ships,

or

Ship weapons are so massive, that they kill the mech in one hit.

Battletech went with the second option.... Naval (space navies) weapons were so massive, that any mech, fighter, and some lighter dropships were instantly killed when hit.......

This would shorten your game dramatically.... i.e.
Rich Hunter charges out to engage the enemie battle cruiser..... the enemy battle cruiser fires...... and Rick's next of kin get a letter listing him as VIA (vaporized in action)

Or

you can have Exo-squad...... the "mechs" fire all the same weapons as the ships do.... and even though this carrier is large enough to carry several squads of mechs, a single squad can take the carrier down......

Here, your capital ships end up being way too fragile....i.e.

The heavy battlecruiser moves into position to bombard the planet below..... the over 3000 crew preparing to unleash death on the citizens.....when suddenly, 10 little mechs.... barely dots to the ships size...begin their attack. Within moments, they have destroyed the engines, and broken the hull..... seconds later, pieces of the ship begin to enter the atmosphere......


On television, and within books, it is possible..... but for a game to have a the logical system for everyone to play.... you run into differences.

In the first scenario, most people would evade the ship weapons..... that's true, unless you have an anime spinal mounts.... hitting everything in a hex...... or the player decides to just fire with penalties, because there is always a small chance he might hit.......

Trying to squeeze them in as fighters loses the flavor..... fighters have their specific abilities, and if we just make the mechs fighters, then they are fighters......just funny looking ones..... and trying to give them their own special abilities just makes the rules more complex....... and demeans the fighters already in the game

In my opinion... the best bet is to leave them seperate, and this is despite the fact that I do like the concept. Unless you want to make the mechs larger, at which point, they are just odd looking ships, themselves.

John

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311 Reply by Nahuris

(4 replies, posted in Starmada)

Maybe if it was listed as only against fighters..... anti-fighter targeting? 
Not sure.... but it is a thought.

John

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312 Reply by Nahuris

(13 replies, posted in Starmada)

Does anyone actually field any ships with hulls greater than 20?

I haven't yet really found the need, although I have faced a ship with a hull of 24, about 3 months ago.  It was slow enough, that by the time it got to the battle, I was able to use several ships against it, and the extra 4 hull points weren't that much of an issue.

John

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313 Reply by Nahuris

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

I don't think any of these ideas "break" the system..... some allow more options than others..... but as far as games I have been in go, the CR still manages to balance things out.......

I posted this on another Forum (Starship Combat News) but I think it will also fit here..... Remember, you can build the most awesome 20 hull level 8 technology monster out there, and still not win...... There is a final variable that most people don't consider..... the "to-hit" roll.

The weapon may be 3/3/3... but if you had to choose a 5+ targeting, in order to fit it, don't expect to count on it killing someone every turn.

Here's the story.......


Ok, recent game of Starmada. My fiance and I were fightning and decided to use the same forces on each side. Basically 1 heavy cruiser, and 2 lighter ones. We ended up pretty much closing on each other through an asteroid belt, and it became a classic line battle. On my left one of my light cruisers engaged hers, and they both vaped each other in the first turn....... total destruction. On my right, the two cruisers proceeded to damage each other, but could continue to the next turn. However in the Middle, where the two heavies were setting up, we had the most impressive display of weapons that anyone could ever want to see (we decided to run this battle without fighters). Unfortunately, neither ship could seem to hit the other.

Round two, the two light cruisers continue to pound on each other, and due to some impressive luck, hers loses all of it's engines, while mine still has one left. Meanwhile the two heavy cruisers pass by each other at one inch apart, blazing away with everything, and nothing hits....not weapons being stopped by shields, but specifically, that every weapon fired misses. By this time, I am a little frustrated, so as part of my orders for next turn, I intentially give myself a crew hit, and eject my gunnery crew. At the same time, my new bridge crew notes that there are little objects being ejected from our opponent cruiser..... her gunnery crew (we had a ref, and our orders were secret from each other) The light cruisers finally finish their fight by destroying each other's weapons and engines, so they are now sitting 2 inches apart, can't move, and have nothing to fire.

Finally, after 3 more turns, our two heavy cruisers managed to work around the asteroids and go at each other again, and we both open up. This time, only one weapon from each ship hits the other, and both roll 1's for the shield penetration roll......... At this point, my captain offers hers a deal, she can tow away her remaining light cruiser, I'll tow mine, and we'll call it a day......


John

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314 Reply by Nahuris

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

Min / Maxing is not necessarily bad... it depends on the game. If the game is a one off battle of raw tactics, then you definitely want to go for the most combat effective ship you can design.  I have a few of those laying around. In campaigns, you want more equipment to support, other areas..... if you are running a Storyline driven game, then the situation is a tad bit different.

I was stating that if you are going for the most efficient design, then dedicated carriers are the way to go. I have several in some of my various fleets.....

Other fleets are purely story driven.... and against my combat fleets would get pounded fairly quickly.....


I even have one battle that we did where all the ships had a +2 in all categories.  It was brutal, and violent, and we used quite a few points on each side, just to field 6 ships each (it was a while ago.... I think each fleet was somewhere around 8000 points for 6 ships... I know that one of my ships was 3100 points)

You are right when you state that the group has to decide, early on, how they plan to play. Having a group that is in agreement goes a long way towards avoiding arguments.

John

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315 Reply by Nahuris

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

It is better from the Min/Max point of view.....

This brings us back around to a discussion we had in my group.... (now down to 4 of us......

Ships are usually designed with various roles in mind.  Most of my ships for my Terran Alliance Fleet contain a science lab, 1 fighter bay, and med centers, ect.

My Kayeshi fleet doesn't even have medical centers on some of it's ships
(I assume that you can have basic first aid without the medical center.... you just cannot do sustained injuries...... kind of following the lines in the book where medical centers are there for campaigns)
All of my fleets include freighters, and I field them on the board with the ships (they carry food, medical supplies, and extra ammo). The only time I don't have at least one freighter on the board, is when the points are really low, and then we assume that my fleet is a short patrol, OR, the freighters are in transit.... and just not available at the moment.

One of the recent players that left us designed all his ships for combat...... if a piece of equipment didn't give an immediate advantage in combat, he didn't use it...... individually, his ships are usually tougher to face.... but he gets limited in storyline scenarios..... In one campaign we ran, he ended up beaten, because he literally ran out of crew to man his ships.... as he wouldn't use medical centers (we even let him partially crew ships, and counted the first hull hits as only hull hits.... there was no crew in those sections to hit. (hull 5 ship with only 2 crew..... the first 3 hits would only hit hull and there was no crew damage until you reached the last 2 hull points)

Also,  as he didn't like designing repair bays... he tended to suffer with accumulated damage.......... it got messy after a bit.

What I like, though, is that Starmada is flexible enough to allow us to design unique fleets from the ground up. The CR system is farely balanced when it comes to the value of ships within the game.....

It's all in how you play it.

John

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316 Reply by Nahuris

(12 replies, posted in Starmada)

That's about what I thought.... the total CR is based on the combat effectiveness of the unit...... not just a sum total of it's components.

John

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317 Reply by Nahuris

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

I don't think it's bad at all.... and the chat room started with Warhammer 40K, drifted to Battlefleet Gothic, and I brought up Starmada..... and how people could get their own copies.... got a few hopefuls out there.... they really liked the idea of being able to design their own ships from the ground up, and having a system that fairly arbitrates it all.

Battlefleet Gothic has almost no means to modify ships..... an imperial destroyer, will ALWAYS be armed the same way, move the same speed, and behave the same way..... 

A lot of the players are getting bored with it..... besides, I really want to see Starmada become the premier game system for space combat....LOL

John

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318 Topic by Nahuris

(15 replies, posted in Starmada)

Personally, I would love to see a Grav Well Generator...... basically, ships cannot hyperspace withing X distance of the ship with the generator.....

One guy that I spoke to in a chat room last night was talking that if he thinks the other fleet is "cheesy" then he just hyperspaces away, and as far as he is concerned...... it's a draw (never mind the question I asked him about his fleeing in the face of the enemy)

He defines any fleet as "cheesy" if it is beating him...... He also considers the use of fighters, hiding behind explosions, drones, sunbursts and any weapon with "extra" as a bonus (hull damage, crew casualties, ect.) totally dishonorable, and grounds to hyperspace away........

To quote..."the saving grace of Starmada is that it isn't quite as stupid as all the dumb rules in the later Star Fleet Battles......"

However, I was thinking of scenarios that would force someone to actually fight it out, or maybe have to cross the board and get off the other side with minimal losses, and realized that having Gravity Well Generators would be a really awesome idea....

John

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319 Reply by Nahuris

(11 replies, posted in Discussion)

Correction..... all reaver ships tend to have dead bodies hanging off of them...........


John

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320 Reply by Nahuris

(11 replies, posted in Discussion)

That would work.... I am totally scratch building mine, and I am not going to copy anything off the movie, if I can do it......  There is no such thing as a standard Reiver ship.

John

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321 Reply by Nahuris

(11 replies, posted in Discussion)

As of yesterday, I managed to get a brand new copy of the 14 original episodes (to include the 3 never shown on television) on DVD, for $20.00.
I also finally got my copy of Serenity back from the friend who borrowed it (he had it for 3 1/2 weeks......) So this weekend is definitely going to be fun.

For the Reaver Fleet I am designing, I am going to pretty much just sort of slap ships together. Some of them will have some higher tech (never more that +1 in any category, and never more than 1 category) alongside ships with lower tech..... The fun is putting together the figs for it........LOL
I am designing little styrene claws and spikes, just to make them look violent..........

John

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322 Reply by Nahuris

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

Cool, I don't have to totally re-work the Kayeshi designs.

John

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323 Reply by Nahuris

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

Hey Dan,

Let me find out if I can get a bottle, and I'll ship it to you. (They sell it in a pub, so I am not sure if I can get it in a sealed bottle) (I've only seen it in a glass, so far......)

John

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324 Reply by Nahuris

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

Kilt Lifter Scotch Cream Ale !!!


One of the local Seattle drinks

John

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325 Reply by Nahuris

(8 replies, posted in Starmada)

I had better get the beers and figs out then......LOL
May as well make Dan comfortable, and offer a game while he is here.

John

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