• Registered: 2006-08-07
  • Posts: 161

Topic: Design pitfalls

While all of my other wargaming/warplaying needs have been met, the thing I'm still missing is a sci-fi skirmish game along the scale of Warhammer and Defiance. While I would like to play around with Defiance, the big obstacle, as always, is made of lead. Miniature-based games tend to be quite above my price range.

So, the not-so obvious solution of my own is to create a hex-based one.

This, of course, leaves me with two problems.

1. Point systems. Would love to have it, but how would I come up with this stuff?

2. What general pitfalls should I avoid?

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: Design pitfalls

RiflemanIII wrote:

While all of my other wargaming/warplaying needs have been met, the thing I'm still missing is a sci-fi skirmish game along the scale of Warhammer and Defiance. While I would like to play around with Defiance, the big obstacle, as always, is made of lead. Miniature-based games tend to be quite above my price range.
So, the not-so obvious solution of my own is to create a hex-based one.
This, of course, leaves me with two problems.
1. Point systems. Would love to have it, but how would I come up with this stuff?
2. What general pitfalls should I avoid?

If you like Defiance, and it's a very good and comprehensive system, why not just convert it to hexes, on a one inch equals one hex basis?
Then simply make counters for it, which is what you're going to have to do anyway if you go with your own design.
Looking at your question from a design standpoint, I'd not necessarily compare Defiance to Warhammer.
I guess the way I see it, Defiance is a skirmish game with a scale more comparable to VOR or Warzone. I'd consider Warhammer's scale to be a bit larger, especially when you're talking number of models on the table.
And THIS is one area where I think the market is a little underserved. There aren't very many (skirmish) games that I'm aware of where you can put 100 or more models per player on the table and play a game in a reasonable amount of time. And by reasonable I'm talking two hours or so. Most of the skirmish I play, or at least know about, tend to bog down once you get more than 50 models per player.
I'm currently working on several game designs, one of which is a system I'll call a mass skirmish system. Hopefully it'll be streamlined enough to support 100+ models per player with a reasonable playtime.
Kevin

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Design pitfalls

Gotta ask....

Have you taken a look at Wardogs? Todd is in the process of reviewing things, we've some artwork that needs to be made, but Todd says it's playable at this point.

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 416

Re: Design pitfalls

underling wrote:

Looking at your question from a design standpoint, I'd not necessarily compare Defiance to Warhammer. I guess the way I see it, Defiance is a skirmish game with a scale more comparable to VOR or Warzone. I'd consider Warhammer's scale (as per number of minis that can be expected to be fielded for a game of reasonable length -- in my book, something around 4 hours or so) to be a bit larger, especially when you're talking number of models on the table

I wouldn't quite put D:VG in the same category as Wh40k either (I call such games as Wh40k and AT-43 "battle games"), but I do find it to be clearly faster going than Vor or Warzone (which are, to me, "skirmish games"). Somewhere in the ballpark of VOID 1.1. generally (maybe the up-and-coming VOID 2.0... er, excuse me, Metropolis would be the best comparison but not so many more people have played than D:VG wink).

The game scale tends IMCO to be governed by how many decision units there are on the table as in our games it tends to be deciding that takes time instead of resolving. In Wh40k, a decision unit for the most part equates a squad so you may have 50+ models on a table and still only some 4-6 decision units. In the games like Warzone or Vor, each trooper becomes an additional decision unit as it is activated individually and does individual things. D:VG is slower than Wh40k and even slighlty slower than VOID because each figure's activation needs to be resolved separately, although there is usually only one decision point per squad.

Now, as to the solution of creating or modifying a game into a hex-based one... D:VG is not quite the most conductive to convert to hex-based as it doesn't allow premeasuring. And I do believe you can count the hexes beforehand more easily than determine inches... Which drives me (not a well versed hex game player, although I may have to get me a mat one of these day to play a space ship game) ask a dumb question: what is it that makes the hexes needed in a counter based game in the 1st place?

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Design pitfalls

RiflemanIII wrote:

While all of my other wargaming/warplaying needs have been met, the thing I'm still missing is a sci-fi skirmish game along the scale of Warhammer and Defiance.

Hey man. 

There is no need to spend a bunch of money on miniatures if you don't want to.  I would say that there is a ton of stuff out now in 15mm that is cheap compared to its 25mm cousin.  Assuming D:VG plays well at ~50 miniatures per side, 100 minis at 15mm scale costs around 60 US dollars (as oppose to 300+ for 25mm).  There is a bunch of great companies that make 15mm miniatures ( www.gzg.com is one)  and you are on your way.  That was my scale of choice before I started playing Warmachine.

If 60 dollars will break the ol' bank account (it would mine these days), there are a bunch of paper miniatures that you can find that look really nice and most don't cost more than 10 dollars.  Some of the best that I know of are at www.rpgnow.com (currently 141 products).  Buy a couple simple sets and let your printer do the painting...  Pretty soon you'll have all that you need for some killer games (this is what I completely use for my zombie games).

Hope this helps.
-Bren