Topic: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Ok... some quick first impressions from a quick digestion of the new rules.

I really like the modular design concept of the rules.  I think that may be the big thing that may very well push Starmada front and center among starship gamers.  I can easily imagine that by this time next year being awash in settings ('skins' perhaps?) for these rules.  Not only all of the usual suspects of big and small screen, but also all of those ideas we've all had perculating.  I may drag out a couple of ideas myself. 

The movement rules were a needed upgrade.  The one thing I like about these vector rules is that the unknown I need to figure out is if my vessel has the necessary thrust.  Most other systems you apply thrust and the unknown is where your ship is going to end up.  Sort of a step learning curve that turns the best trained crews and the most advanced ships in several universes into a Drivers Ed course amongst the stars.  I'm looking forward to giving these rules a shakedown.

I'm glad to see the Expanded Firing Arcs.  I never could quiet get the hang of the usual firing arcs and kept having to refer to the rulebook.  I do wish that ship sheets had the firing arcs on them along with the now retired diagram for screens.  And a memo box for movement costs in the new system would have been good as well. 

And unfortunately there doesn't look to be a way to damage specials or options.  Granted Starmada X wasn't very satisfying in how it handled it and I'm not sure what a good answer would be to that problem.  Maybe something like Full Thrust with crit checks at certain points in the Hull damage track.

Still... minor quibbles.  I'm very jazzed about SAE.  Hopefully soon I'll be able to steal some time and give it a spin while it's still got that new game smell.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

It took me a little while for my mind to register the change to the default fighter flights, but it's all right; The new small-craft options are going to be recieving some real playing with over the next few days, that's for sure.

The new damage tracks look just fine to me, and I especially like how its no longer possible to put a low-thrust ship down to pillbox status with a couple of lucky hits.

Haven't played around enough with the new weapon abilities yet, more on that, later.

Consolidating all of the non-combat capacity of a vessel into one category really does make sense, same goes for marines. If you want them to go somewhere, you have to buy them a ride.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

aresian wrote:

I can easily imagine that by this time next year being awash in settings ('skins' perhaps?) for these rules.

Toying with some thoughts on how to encourage settings... stay tuned.

The movement rules were a needed upgrade.  The one thing I like about these vector rules is that the unknown I need to figure out is if my vessel has the necessary thrust.  Most other systems you apply thrust and the unknown is where your ship is going to end up.

That was the intent. Glad at least someone likes it. smile

I do wish that ship sheets had the firing arcs on them along with the now retired diagram for screens.  And a memo box for movement costs in the new system would have been good as well.

Yeah, I struggled with the layout of the new ship card for quite some time. Just didn't seem to find an appropriate place for the hex diagram, which I wasn't sure anyone was using, anyway.

I'll keep plugging away...

And unfortunately there doesn't look to be a way to damage specials or options.  Granted Starmada X wasn't very satisfying in how it handled it and I'm not sure what a good answer would be to that problem.  Maybe something like Full Thrust with crit checks at certain points in the Hull damage track.

Yep -- that would be a major change (or rather, rollback from X), and one the Admiralty debated a bit. But in the end, I felt the benefits of taking Q hits back out of the game countered the drawbacks.

But, remember, this is the Core Rulebook: the order of the day is "options, options, options". big_smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

RiflemanIII wrote:

It took me a little while for my mind to register the change to the default fighter flights, but it's all right; The new small-craft options are going to be recieving some real playing with over the next few days, that's for sure.

I'm quite jazzed about that one, myself.

The change to default fighters was a necessary one -- for some reason, I didn't include the "reduces shields" effect into the point cost for X. By taking the ability out, it keeps the CR at 50, but you can always add it back in as a fighter trait (Piercing).

Consolidating all of the non-combat capacity of a vessel into one category really does make sense, same goes for marines. If you want them to go somewhere, you have to buy them a ride.

Indeed.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Well...I can say there is at least one setting project well underway at present. Complete with a mini line. big_smile

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

....it's been the better part of a two years since I was playing Starmada once or twice weekly, and got third place in that Bourbaki basin contest.  A combination of time and the open-ended abuse of special equipment brought me away, but the release of the admiralty edition compelled me to open my wallet.  Congratulations, MJ12 -- this thing looks and feels professional, and seems quite smooth (if only you could afford an artist rather than cheezy computer graphics...but perhaps that's part of the charm).

One question I have -- though IMP works more or less as PEN used to (barring the 'impossible values' addition), it seems odd to me that ships can be assigned a shields value above 6...unless I missed that critical stricture somewhere.  It's only noted in the 'definitions' section, and the field isn't limited to values 1-5 on the spreadsheet.  I assume this is just a matter of clarification and not a fundamental change.

That's really my only criticism, though.  I love the integral vector system in theory, though I'll have to see how it flies when I get some folks into a game or two.  The new firing arcs are perhapss the most commonsense element -- matching them to the actual hex sides makes them much, much easier to remember.

Soon, the Colonial / Miranda Confederacy and their old foes, the Ryzan Republic, shall sail forth again!

-Adso

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

BrotherAdso wrote:

Congratulations, MJ12 -- this thing looks and feels professional, and seems quite smooth (if only you could afford an artist rather than cheezy computer graphics...but perhaps that's part of the charm).

Pardon me while I go cry... I was really proud of the graphics... sad

One question I have -- though IMP works more or less as PEN used to (barring the 'impossible values' addition), it seems odd to me that ships can be assigned a shields value above 6...unless I missed that critical stricture somewhere.  It's only noted in the 'definitions' section, and the field isn't limited to values 1-5 on the spreadsheet.  I assume this is just a matter of clarification and not a fundamental change.

No, you didn't miss anything -- although there should be a mention in the construction section about the upper limit of 5.

The spreadsheet allows values greater than 5 because of the "screens" option. If you pay close attention, you'll see that if you enter a value of 6+, the box on the data card changes from "SHIELDS" to "SCREENS".

That's really my only criticism, though.  I love the integral vector system in theory, though I'll have to see how it flies when I get some folks into a game or two.  The new firing arcs are perhapss the most commonsense element -- matching them to the actual hex sides makes them much, much easier to remember.

People had been pushing for those for quite some time. Glad they're being accepted into the family.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

cricket wrote:

If you pay close attention, you'll see that if you enter a value of 6+, the box on the data card changes from "SHIELDS" to "SCREENS".

Or, rather, it's SUPPOSED to.

Grr.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

I really like what I have seen.  I had some questions about how some of the weapons traits interact with fighters (like does double damage roll 2 dice when attacking fighter flights or does its effect only work on capital ships)? Otherwise looks great.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

I really like how it all turned out.

:-)

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Cepheus wrote:

I had some questions about how some of the weapons traits interact with fighters (like does double damage roll 2 dice when attacking fighter flights or does its effect only work on capital ships)?

With so many options, great pains were taken to be very specific in terminology and wording. So, to answer your question:

Rule 5.4 states "In addition, each hit scored on a fighter flight automatically destroys one fighter; no impact or damage rolls are necessary."

Option C.4 (Double Damage) states: "The double damage trait does exactly what it implies; the effect of each damage die from such a weapon is doubled."

Since damage rolls are not made against fighter flights, and the double damage trait only affects damage dice, the answer would be that the double damage weapon trait does not come into play against fighter flights.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Excellent. Thanks for the clarification. I was hoping it worked that way so I could make fighters specifically designed to attack ships, but would have problems vs other fighters. Thanks for the clarification

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

BrotherAdso wrote:

Congratulations, MJ12 -- this thing looks and feels professional, and seems quite smooth (if only you could afford an artist rather than cheezy computer graphics...but perhaps that's part of the charm).

cricket wrote:

Pardon me while I go cry... I was really proud of the graphics... sad

Dan used a program called DOGA L3 for the graphics. It's capable of more realistic-looking results, but Dan wanted that 'anime' look - and I think he got it. I tried to nudge him a bit away from that, but he felt it fit in with the theme of the earlier releases this way I think.

There's also the concern about the PDF having real graphics-heavy pages for people to try printing on a wide variety of home printers. Some (if not most) printers are simply not up to the task - and the ink expense would be sorta high.

The alternative would be to make two seperate versions, and for Dan and I to collaborate on the graphics and put in more like we did in the Iron Stars books.

..but that would delay it for another few months....woud you prefer that?
big_smile

I suspect that the setting books will have more and better graphics, but no promises (not from me, anyway) - I don't drive the bus.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Well, I for one don't care about graphics. I love Starmada for content not eye-candy. Love the new version and the great use of examples helps a ton.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

japridemor wrote:

Well, I for one don't care about graphics.

<GASP!> ..must...not....loose...consciousness.....

THUD!

<wheeze...wheeeeze....>

japridemor wrote:

I love Starmada for content not eye-candy. Love the new version and the great use of examples helps a ton.

Some like them, others don't need them, some measure the quality of the publications by now many there are, and how they look.

Glad you like it!
big_smile

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

thedugan wrote:

The alternative would be to make two seperate versions, and for Dan and I to collaborate on the graphics and put in more like we did in the Iron Stars books.
...
I suspect that the setting books will have more and better graphics, but no promises (not from me, anyway) - I don't drive the bus.

I think the comment about "cheesy" graphics was a plant from Dugan to get me to stop thinking I can do "art" by myself. smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:

The alternative would be to make two seperate versions, and for Dan and I to collaborate on the graphics and put in more like we did in the Iron Stars books.
...
I suspect that the setting books will have more and better graphics, but no promises (not from me, anyway) - I don't drive the bus.

I think the comment about "cheesy" graphics was a plant from Dugan to get me to stop thinking I can do "art" by myself. smile


No, it was a completely un-solicited opinion - I can be devious, but I'm not THAT devious - or that obvious....
big_smile
You know, it's not often that I actually laugh out loud after reading something.
big_smile

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

I *do* hint quite frequently to Dan that the graphics need to 'step it up' though....
big_smile

..not that I'm that great an artist. I just want to look at all the other game developers and give them a big "neener! neener!"...
big_smile

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

Dan used a program called DOGA L3 for the graphics. It's capable of more realistic-looking results, but Dan wanted that 'anime' look - and I think he got it. I tried to nudge him a bit away from that, but he felt it fit in with the theme of the earlier releases this way I think.

Anime? I actually got a bit more of a Freespace/SW vibe from the graphics, myself. Mmm... Freespace...

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

thedugan wrote:

I *do* hint quite frequently to Dan that the graphics need to 'step it up' though....
big_smile
..not that I'm that great an artist. I just want to look at all the other game developers and give them a big "neener! neener!"...
big_smile

And who's going to do those stepped up graphics, and how much of a delay would that introduce?
:wink:
Sorry, but my guess is that stepped up graphics ultimately have very little to do (in MJ-12's case) with sales of (any) rule set. The game engine and presentation (quality of the book, pages, etc.) are going to drive the sales.
As for the interior art (in Starmada), I think it looks just fine the way it is.
Kevin

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

underling wrote:
thedugan wrote:

I *do* hint quite frequently to Dan that the graphics need to 'step it up' though.... big_smile
..not that I'm that great an artist. I just want to look at all the other game developers and give them a big "neener! neener!"...:D

And who's going to do those stepped up graphics, and how much of a delay would that introduce? :wink:

Fair Questions....

In the current case, I'm thinking that the current graphics are about right - we've only recieved one 'complaint' so far - and the graphics are limited to either "splash art" or illustrations of the mechanics. A purist wouldn't object to it, I think.

With a setting book, I think that people are going to want to see the ships and maybe the 'aliens'. I don't think that we actually need to reach the Games Workshop level of graphic intensity.

While the graphics-heavy content works for GW, what differs is that they have their stuff in actual brick-and-mortar shops. With that type of contact, I think you might need the extra "WOW!" effect to sell the game to what might be an indifferent or vacillating customer. GW needs that extra push, because they have a LOT higher overhead.

Given what appears to be GW's average target audience (this isn't a put-down, just an observation), I think they'd see dractic drop-offs in sales if they went a lot lighter on the pix.

It would slow down the delivery of the settings books, but if given enough advance information, I think that Dan and I could get the art done in a reasonable time frame - a month or so delay. There needs to be more playtesting to see if the ship perform as desired, and that could be done as Dan or I complete the graphics.

underling wrote:

Sorry, but my guess is that stepped up graphics ultimately have very little to do (in MJ-12's case) with sales of (any) rule set. The game engine and presentation (quality of the book, pages, etc.) are going to drive the sales.

True to an extent. I think the need for graphics depends very much on the audience that you're aiming at:

- Some are happy with white paper and the typed rules.

- Some (like me) like consistent, coherent rules AND some cool pictures.

- Some buy it, it sits on a shelf, and they pull it down to ponder, look at the pictures, and read the little stories they put in the margins - and it rarely gets played. <sigh> I don't want to be there.


It's current incarnation is about right for the target audience, which appears to me to be somewhere between the two of us - and that's fine. If we ever get to the point that we need MORE art, I'm constantly dorking with ways to move faster and do better graphics. big_smile


underling wrote:

As for the interior art (in Starmada), I think it looks just fine the way it is.  Kevin

Dan's actually fairly good with DOGA now, but I still think I texture better. big_smile

..I do take longer though.


Dang it, is this off-topic now?

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

thedugan wrote:

Dang it, is this off-topic now?


No.... wargaming forum threads never go off topic.  They just meander a bit.


And to meander a bit further.  I was thinking that it would be nice to have a graphic representation of the weapons on the ship sheet like Full Thrust and SFB.  Had an idea of how to do it and then took a look at the sample ship Victory.  It's got 21 weapons in total.  So that idea got deep sixed.  Besides.. it's just not necessary.

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

aresian wrote:

And to meander a bit further.  I was thinking that it would be nice to have a graphic representation of the weapons on the ship sheet like Full Thrust and SFB.

That's odd... one of the few things I would NOT take from FT, SFB, or even B5W or SBFCS is the graphic nature of the SSDs.

To me, it seems much cleaner (and more functional) to have everything in a pre-determined spot on the sheet, with the vital stats listed right there.

Just a personal preference, I suppose.

Besides, can you imagine coming up with 5 million different icons for weapon systems? smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

underling wrote:

Sorry, but my guess is that stepped up graphics ultimately have very little to do (in MJ-12's case) with sales of (any) rule set. The game engine and presentation (quality of the book, pages, etc.) are going to drive the sales.
As for the interior art (in Starmada), I think it looks just fine the way it is.
Kevin

Thanks, Kevin. I knew I liked you for some reason... wink

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Admiralty Edition First Impressions

cricket wrote:
underling wrote:

Sorry, but my guess is that stepped up graphics ultimately have very little to do (in MJ-12's case) with sales of (any) rule set. The game engine and presentation (quality of the book, pages, etc.) are going to drive the sales.
As for the interior art (in Starmada), I think it looks just fine the way it is.
Kevin

Thanks, Kevin. I knew I liked you for some reason... wink

Uh-huh...
Just remember this when it comes time to start laying out the first GF supplement.
:wink: