Before blaming Beowulf on a high success rate just because he uses maximum range weapons, you should know that his die rolls are exceedingly above average.  As a long time opponent, I've been victimized quite a bit due to his die rolls.  Also, the arcs of his weapons should be considered: all but one.  He uses the classic FX and RX type weapons that our historical warships have used at their pinnacle of advancement which means nearly every turn every weapon fires at their enemy.  I have often tried to use mostly front arc weapons (like in Star Fleet Battles), and lose due to those arc differences once the game gets to be a turning match. 

I often use 30 range weapons as well, and not have near the success rate.

I think part of the uproar against range>18 weapons is that people are using the badly-designed book ships and think that's how ships should be designed, especially concerning the low ranges that those ships' weapons have.  Most don't even have weapons that go out to 18.  They're matched against each other (bad vs bad  ), but once home designed ships show up they are easily overcome and not just due to range but also arcs of fire can play a role.  I have a few designs that could beat a large fleet of those book ships with just a handful of my designs (being faster with longer-ranged weapons means I'll never get hit).

As far as figuring the cost, yes, I do believe range does not equal speed.  It might be close, close enough that it's hard to really know the difference.  Maybe that's why this is an issue, range-30 weapons are an extreme case that show that the equation is wrong.  Perhaps the only way to really tell is to playtest extreme cases of both, where the cost is even for range and speed (is a very fast short-ranged-weapon ship equal to a slow long-ranged-weapon ship?).

By the way, range-1 and range-2 weapons INCREASE the ORAT over range-3 weapons.  That tells me that the equation does have an issue with range.

Consider this; A person designs his dreadnoughts in a porcupine fashion. Giving them Speed 2, Shields 3 and a ton of range 3 weapons.  This person would be at a different extreme than Beowulf. The IS ships would likely tear it apart easily. Should this DNs Combat Value be revalued do to its inability to win? Not all designs are equal.

Another thing with Beowulf's designs [not picking on you B ], they are very high tech ships with +2 in every area that matters for the design. Advanced tech ships have many advantages over standard tech 0 ships. Take the other extreme and build a fleet of –2 in all techs and throw them at IS ships.

I put this together, it's just a fast design based on Beowulf's. I'm sure it could be improved upon.

Prinz Eugen (Tech +2 ship) CV 465
Hull 10, Engines 18, Shields 3 (Screens)
Plasguns: Range 12, 1/3+/1/2
Piercing
4x GHIJK
AA Lasers: Range 6, 3/3+/1/1
2x ABCDEF
Armor Plating, Anti Fighter Batteries, Fire Control, Overthrusters, Countermeasures

(It is very easy to alter this vessel to have either Stealth or Cloaking.)

I think two of these have a very decent chance of winning vs. the Mississippi and are cheaper.

Which illustrates my point of being forced into one of three design types.  Here you've gone to the extreme speed design/minimal weapons and/or defenses.  :wink:

DISCLAIMER: I've actually played Starmada very little. But I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before.

I'm not sure the range jump is a problem, as it should be factored into the equation already. And I realize that actual weapon effectivity is probably more a function of area than strictly range.

But I also believe that range is much more important than speed.
I haven't actually run any numbers, but consider the following two examples:

Ship #1: speed 24, range 12
Ship #2: speed 6, range 30

All other things being equal, as ship #1 takes damage, I believe its speed will start decreasing very quickly because of possible engine damage. Ship #2's speed will degrade very slowly in comparison.
HOWEVER...
Ship #2's range will never decrease due to damage. So during the course of a game, it'll always have an effective reach out to at least 30 hexes, and unless it's taken a lot of damage, even farther than that.
As ship #2 starts losing engine capability, it's effective reach will decrease more and more quickly than ship #2's.
Therefore, unless I'm missing something, I'd take a ship with long ranged weapons over a fast ship with shorter ranged weapons any time.
Assuming I was power gaming.
Which I don 't.
This discussion is theoretical in nature only.

Kevin

Sounds almost like we need to add a fire control system that allows the extended range... with range being reduced if it is damaged..... That would put range on par with movement....

One thing we need to look at is what Silvaris specifically mentioned... the higher tech will tend to kill lower tech. Any ship with a +2 in each category is going to be vastly superior to any of the book ships in the same way that a modern soldier with a machine gun will hold an advantage over a 12th century spear unit.

Even when there are equal points worth of ships on a table, with large tech disparities, there is rarely equal points facing each other..... Either the high tech ship can control the range due to it's greater engine strength, or the lower tech ship ends up unable to fire due to limits in fire arcs.....ect. When I ran my test battle, I used tech level zero ships as my attackers..... and they suffered terrible losses, even without the escorts that could have been available to the defender. 

The issue is not with range so much, as it is with the fact that any system, no matter how balanced, can be nerfed when extremes become the norm. I recently was putting together another battle, this time BeowulfJB's designs against the B5 designes recently posted here...... I chose 2 of his Mississippi class ships, with some escorts..... and BeowulfJB's ships as the attacker.....

(I'm not picking on BeowulfJB, as I actually find his designs to be well thought out... but as they are the best example of a design with serious range advantages, I have found them useful)

Anyways, what struck me right off was the fact that the EA fleet facing BeowulfJB's ships was vastly larger.... and due to that and due to the slight disparities in speeds, I was never able to concentrate the firepower of the fleet in a meaningful way against any specific target..... Basically, no matter how the overall battle is balanced, the high disparity in tech meant that none of BeowulfJB's ships ever faced an equal opponent..... nor even a situation where a specific ship was out-cost by it's opponents.

My conclusion is that while range is an issue... the ships themselves are so superior in every way that  it also makes a major difference.... they have massive fire arcs, high enough speed to control range, long range, and solid defenses..... they have no weakness that an opponent can exploit....
There is no power allocation to limit fire, no other means than using a stealth generator to minimize the impact of range, and no major advantage to high speed other than getting to a different spot quickly (since all of the ships are on a simiar maneuverability limitation... thrust vs. speed....)

Then there are the limitations based on the fact that this is a turn based game as well... range is factored after all movement is done, and only from the point that the movements are done.... meaning the ship that does not move at all has the same chance to be hit as the one that zig -zagged or flew in a big curve.

Anything we look into is going to have to take these variables into account, or our attempts to tweak one thing may just disrupt it all...

(sorry about the novel lengthed post)

Nahuris

Put those values in the spreadsheet and see what you get.  The ship's ORAT increases with ranges 1 and 2.

And why isn't range 1 available?  Fighters have a range of 1.

(why have a separate category for fighters anyway?  they're just hull 1 ships with a squadron option and a movement advantage.  but that's another topic)

I've always thought that high speed targets should be harder to hit than slower ones. To keep things simple you could add the engine rating of the target to the range. So a range 30 weapon shooting at a very fast speed 18 ship would have to get very close for its weapons to be effective.

my 1.414 cents

Glen, that reminds me of the Sailing Orders stuff I posted up... god, a year ago?

Maybe something useful we can mine out of it.  I'll bump it.

FWIW, I would not propose changing the SU cost calculation, just the CR.

No, it doesn't.

ORAT (with a single A weapon) is 4.0 at range 3, 2.0 at ranges 1 and 2.