• Registered: 2007-07-29
  • Posts: 55

Topic: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

If I ever have a weapon that I put any kind of special ability on, I add in Starship Exclusive and get it on sale.  I was never expecting to fire my Ignores Shields gun at a fighter, so it is just pure discount without cost.

In fact, take a weapon with a cool power like Ignores Shields.  If I Starship-Exclusive it, and then give it an Alt Mode of Fighter-Exclusive without that power, it comes out cheaper than the original gun.  Scoreboard.

(Okay, after writing this I played with it more.  It is true even with just IMP or DMG values being modified.  Do I have it right that Fighter-Exclusive is .6 and Starship-Exclusive is .7?)

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

All other things being equal, if you have ships with Starship Exclusive weapons and I don't, you get 20% more points. So, you'll probably win more often than not.

On the other hand, all I have to do is bring a few fighters, and the balance shifts back into my favor. Even if you give your weapons an anti-fighter mode, each turn you are fending off my fighters is a turn you're not attacking my ships.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-07-24
  • Posts: 158

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

cricket wrote:

All other things being equal, if you have ships with Starship Exclusive weapons and I don't, you get 20% more points. So, you'll probably win more often than not.

On the other hand, all I have to do is bring a few fighters, and the balance shifts back into my favor. Even if you give your weapons an anti-fighter mode, each turn you are fending off my fighters is a turn you're not attacking my ships.

True enough, but how useful are some weapon traits that they use on capital weapons vs fighters anyway? A 1/2/3 or a weapon that does Continuing Damage or Extra Hull or such are useful vs Starships, but nearly useless vs fighters, so why not slap on Starship Exclusive and have another battery for fighters? Now I just lowered the cost of my weapons of which I was simply not going to use against fighters anyway.
I don't think it's too powerful, I simply think it is unnecessary, since the only weapons it will see use on odds are wouldn't be used against fighters anyway.

  • Registered: 2007-07-29
  • Posts: 55

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

cricket wrote:

All other things being equal, if you have ships with Starship Exclusive weapons and I don't, you get 20% more points. So, you'll probably win more often than not.

On the other hand, all I have to do is bring a few fighters, and the balance shifts back into my favor. Even if you give your weapons an anti-fighter mode, each turn you are fending off my fighters is a turn you're not attacking my ships.

This isn't the same old ratio of fighters to starships discussion.  I'm saying that Starship Exclusive Dual-Moded with Fighter Exclusive gives you a points discount with no tradeoff.  Take any fleet force mix you want, and then go through every ship and do this mod to every weapon.  You won't have changed a thing except to generate free points.

10 SU Weapon with 1.5 power that doesn't help vs fighters.  Like Piercing.
15 SU normally,
OR
Add Starship Exclusive and then Dual Mode it with itself with Fighter Exclusive replacing Piercing.
15 * .7 + 10 *.6 * .5 = 13.5, and the weapon is the exact same as it used to be.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

Boneless wrote:

This isn't the same old ratio of fighters to starships discussion.  I'm saying that Starship Exclusive Dual-Moded with Fighter Exclusive gives you a points discount with no tradeoff.

I think it is a corollary to the fighters-to-ships ratio discussion, and I disagree that there's no tradeoff. For a cost savings of less than 4%, your example battery of weapons must (a) all fire in one mode or the other; you can't split between them and (b) the decision on which mode to use is made before anyone has moved, so there's no guarantee you'll be able to use them in the most efficient manner.

Take any fleet force mix you want, and then go through every ship and do this mod to every weapon.  You won't have changed a thing except to generate free points.

Not true.

Theoretical Weapon A (RNG 12, ROF 1, ACC 4+, IMP 1, DMG 1, Piercing +1)

Base SU cost = 9

Theoretical Weapon B, Mode 1 (RNG 12, ROF 1, ACC 4+, IMP 1, DMG 1, Piercing +1, Starship-Exclusive)
Theoretical Weapon B, Mode 2 (RNG 12, ROF 1, ACC 4+, IMP 1, DMG 1, Fighter-Exclusive)

Base SU cost = 6.3 + 3.6/2 = 8.1, round up to 9

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2007-07-29
  • Posts: 55

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

a) is avoidable by splitting them in to five banks.  And part two is math abuse; of course rounding takes over in an example of 9.  A monstrous 12-3+ 1-2-2 Continuing EHD is 120, and becomes 87 when split and recombined.

But declaring at the start of the turn!  Now that's something I totally missed.  Makes Starship Exclusive make much more sense.  That is a hella trade-off if you have to flip the switch before you know what you can shoot at. 

(Making a Fighter-Exclusive that you can switch to a matching Starship Exclusive if there are no fighters on the board isn't abusable since Anti-Fighter is the only bonus you can straight shed in that direction.)

Carry on.  Powergame radar deactivated.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

It almost seems as if the game is getting a little more complex.  I have not been able to play in a while, but all of this new stuff such as dual mode, ignores shields and some of the other stuff almost gives me a head ache.  tongue 
I have just gotten two copies of Klingon Armada.  I will have to look thru it carefully and see if I can make sense of these new options... :oops:

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: I feel Starship-Exclusive is too powerful

BeowulfJB wrote:

It almost seems as if the game is getting a little more complex.  I have not been able to play in a while, but all of this new stuff such as dual mode, ignores shields and some of the other stuff almost gives me a head ache.  tongue

Which is precisely the reason why the game is structured the way it is -- if you don't want all the different options, don't use 'em. big_smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website