• Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 4

Topic: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

I recently stumbled across this On Demand 3D Printing company called Shapeways.
http://www.shapeways.com/

What caught my attention is the fact that Charles Onies, a 3D sculptor who did a lot of the miniatures for Ad Astra games is using it to produce his own line of starship miniatures which I have to say look amazing.
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/irrationaldesigns

It got me thinking if it would be possible to use this service to produce miniatures for Starmada and Iron Stars, either directly by setting up a shop on their website or by making masters for moulds that Brigade Models could use. The service seems competitive as cost is based solely on the type and amount of material used and there are tips for reducing this given on their website. The prices range from about $4 for the smallest ships to about $25 - 30 for the largest ones using plastic. Steel is also available and could be used for mould masters if the plastic isn't suitable.

From the images used in the Starmada and Iron Star books it looks like you already have the 3D models so how much work would it take to turn them into something that could be printed out using this service.? This would probably mean cleaning some of the finer details away and breaking the model down into separate components in the same pattern as the recent Gamma Class Destroyer i.e. separate sails with a part of the hull attached and separate turrets.

I've ordered some of the Charles Onies miniatures and will report back on what they are like when they arrive. The prices listed excluded VAT but did include postage and packing to the EU.

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

very cool

We need an MJ12Games logo brand...

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Brigade has the option on the Iron Stars stuff, so I don't think they are available for this.

I *CAN* output the 3D stuff in a convertible format, I don't know how much work would be required to make them ready for Shapeways. If Dan wants me to, all he has to do is say the word. I suspect there's more to it than simple technical feasibility.

I'm actually on the "TSOD" list that Charles Oines runs on Yahoo, and I've been aware of Shapeways for a while now. They seem a bit overpriced to me. The smallest one is 4$? If I was actively gaming with a group, I'd probably do a LOT more scratch building.....

  • Registered: 2010-01-07
  • Posts: 35

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

De-lurking with a vengence:

Oh good, this is already on the radar.  I've already started pushing the concept over on Dean's SCN site.  Please look at the thread here:

http://www.star-ranger.com/forum/viewto … amp;t=5599

There's no need to convert the entire mini to printed plastic, and in fact there are probably advantages to not doing so since Shapeways costs rise very rapidly as volume increases.  Using Brigade pewter for the relatively bulky hulls while remaking the towers and sails with better detail and mounting points would be the best of both worlds, although it's unclear what it will do to price points - ought to save on shipping weight, though.  The "spindly bits" are extremely low-volume, which is what you want in 3D printing.

Take a look at the intricate (but small) open-structure ships Afrodi has produced through Shapeways and imagine IS minis with detailed sails and girdered towers.  We need to talk Tony into this, either as a collaborative effort or with him dealing with Shapeways directly.

I've got a tentative commission to paint Afrodi's pieces for his catalog, and will report back as well on the material suitability for minis use, including hybridization.

Rich

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Another option is to get Shapeways to make the prototypes, and have Brigade cast it all.

  • Registered: 2010-01-07
  • Posts: 35

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Trust me, it's physically impossible to cast truly thin sails or open-lattice towers in pewter.  Brigade did about the best you can do with the current versions.  They might (and probably should) cast the hulls (remastered or no) in pewter, but you're going to need the add-ons in plastic for the full effect.

Pure Shapeways SWF would work in theory, but price climbs at a rate that's pretty much the cube of the volumetric increase.  Probably not practical for decent sized ships.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

starbreaker wrote:

Trust me, it's physically impossible to cast truly thin sails or open-lattice towers in pewter.

True, but they need not be pewter.

starbreaker wrote:

Brigade did about the best you can do with the current versions.  They might (and probably should) cast the hulls (remastered or no) in pewter, but you're going to need the add-ons in plastic for the full effect.

Yep...

starbreaker wrote:

Pure Shapeways SWF would work in theory, but price climbs at a rate that's pretty much the cube of the volumetric increase.  Probably not practical for decent sized ships.

The problem with pure shapeways is breaking whatever agreement you have with them, plus more expensive minis.

  • Registered: 2010-01-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

I *CAN* output the 3D stuff in a convertible format, I don't know how much work would be required to make them ready for Shapeways. If Dan wants me to, all he has to do is say the word. I suspect there's more to it than simple technical feasibility.

It is generally not too bad to convert for shapeways. The main restrictions (for the WSF) material is that it needs to be at least 0.7mm thick to be strong and that the minimum detail that will show up is 0.1-0.2mm. There is also a nice community on shapeways to help "debug" your file if you run into problems.

Another advantage of the shapeways/rapid prototyping process is economic rather than technical - because there is (potentially) no mold-making cost and production is on demand, the seller assumes less risk. They still have to do the design, of course, and it is best to order a part or two to make sure it came out right, but its a far cry from what ever a mold costs. Plus, since the part is laser sintered each time, you don't have to worry about molds wearing out.

Incidentally, the line of ships starbreaker refered to is at http://www.shapeways.com/shops/objects.

  • Registered: 2008-05-28
  • Posts: 4

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

by starbreaker on Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:07 pm

There's no need to convert the entire mini to printed plastic, and in fact there are probably advantages to not doing so since Shapeways costs rise very rapidly as volume increases. Using Brigade pewter for the relatively bulky hulls while remaking the towers and sails with better detail and mounting points would be the best of both worlds, although it's unclear what it will do to price points - ought to save on shipping weight, though. The "spindly bits" are extremely low-volume, which is what you want in 3D printing.

I was actually thinking almost the opposite, since getting the hull shapes both correct and to scale looks like it would be the hardest part of making an Iron Star miniatures master. The hulls on larger models would not need to be solid, depending on how strong the material used is they could be as hollow as plastic aircraft kits are. 

Costs for smaller ships could be further reduced by making them available in squadron packs or even fleet packs as well as individual models so that the $1.50 base cost is paid once rather than for each model.

by starbreaker on Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:32 pm

Trust me, it's physically impossible to cast truly thin sails or open-lattice towers in pewter. Brigade did about the best you can do with the current versions. They might (and probably should) cast the hulls (remastered or no) in pewter, but you're going to need the add-ons in plastic for the full effect.

This would be the detail that would need to be cleared from the 3D model that I noted earlier. The existing models would definitely need some modification before they could be used, including thickening or replacing details, hollowing out and breaking up into suitable pieces. Scalling different ships against each other might also be tricky.  That being the case it might be worth seeing how much work this would be per model, possibly doing a test run for a single model to find out.

EDIT: Theres also the option of producing different models of the same ship both with and without the solid "sails". If I remember there were people on the forum who wanted to remove and replace these with wire mesh.

  • Registered: 2010-01-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Rough calculation:

Bantam class Battleship is 75mm long. I don't have the other measurements, so lets assume the body is 75x20x20mm, or about 30cm^3, this would be $31.50. If you hollow it out, the surface area is about 68 cm^2, with a thickness of 1mm, that comes to 6.8cm^2. Assume 20% overage for detail, and you get $13.74, which is about 40% more than the metal figure goes for, without the sails.

Of course I'm not sure of those measurements, and the 20% is just a guess...

Could someone point me to a link to the original renders?


thanks,

arun

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

afrodri wrote:

Could someone point me to a link to the original renders?

Weren't they hand-made?

  • Registered: 2010-01-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

jimbeau wrote:
afrodri wrote:

Could someone point me to a link to the original renders?

Weren't they hand-made?

Sorry... I found them in the rule book. Impressive work. It would depend on how the model was done, but first impressions are that they would be amenable to 3D printing. The shapes, size, and levels of detail seem doable, especially some of the sails.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,284

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

The current IS miniatures on the market by Brigade Models are indeed hand made.

  • Registered: 2010-01-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

go0gleplex wrote:

The current IS miniatures on the market by Brigade Models are indeed hand made.


Sorry, I was unclear. I was interested in the looking at the 3D rendered images Admiral Pertwee referred to in his original post. Since there are existing 3D models, it should be much easier to port them to the Shapeways 3D printing process, if Brigade wanted to do so.

  • Registered: 2010-01-07
  • Posts: 35

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Hadn't thought about hollowing the hulls.  Might make a pure Shapeways model viable for the smaller ships at least - but that doesn't help out Brigade much, does it?

While we're talking about old 3D render projects, has it occurred to anyone else that Shapeways could make ships for the finest scifi television program (n)ever produced?  I'm talking, of course, about Space Fleet Omega.   wink

  • Registered: 2010-01-12
  • Posts: 1

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

afrodri wrote:

It is generally not too bad to convert for shapeways. The main restrictions (for the WSF) material is that it needs to be at least 0.7mm thick to be strong and that the minimum detail that will show up is 0.1-0.2mm. There is also a nice community on shapeways to help "debug" your file if you run into problems.

Interesting, I read somewhere that it was 2-3mm thick.  I can hopefully save some more cost with hollow minis.  I uploaded various Shiva BBs to Shapeways, but the costs are brutal.  Kind of like Space Fleet Omega, FASA never created a line of capital ship minis for the Renegade Legion universe.
--
TAZ

  • Registered: 2010-01-08
  • Posts: 5

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

zircher wrote:

Interesting, I read somewhere that it was 2-3mm thick.  I can hopefully save some more cost with hollow minis.  I uploaded various Shiva BBs to Shapeways, but the costs are brutal.  Kind of like Space Fleet Omega, FASA never created a line of capital ship minis for the Renegade Legion universe.
--
TAZ

It depends on your material. The default WSF (white strong flexible) material has a minimum wallthickness of 1mm (actually, 0.7mm, but they recommend at least 1.0). I think it is 2-3 for some of the other materials (Steel, for instance is 3mm).

Hollowing out is the only way (that I've found) to make a decent cost model. Ideally, if you keep things hollow your costs scale with the 1.5 power instead of with the cube.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Hello Taz, nice to see you over on our turf....

  • Registered: 2010-01-07
  • Posts: 35

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

zircher wrote:

Interesting, I read somewhere that it was 2-3mm thick.  I can hopefully save some more cost with hollow minis.  I uploaded various Shiva BBs to Shapeways, but the costs are brutal.  Kind of like Space Fleet Omega, FASA never created a line of capital ship minis for the Renegade Legion universe.
--
TAZ

Oh, are those yours?  Nice work - and the prices don't look that bad to me until you hit the 5" version.  Actual boardgamer Leviathan types would want the 2" version anyway, and that's a bargain at four bucks.  Even the 4" model is only steep by minis standards, not utterly outrageous.

So, when are you making the rest of the ships from the game so we can build fleets?  There were only what, about 80 official designs all told?  No trouble at all, right?

  • Registered: 2011-03-14
  • Posts: 3

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

The existing models would certainly need some modifications before it can be used including thickening or replacement details hollowing out and breaking into pieces. Scaling different vessels against each other could be also complicated.

  • Registered: 2006-01-06
  • Posts: 28

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Anything ever come of this for IS? Or more ships from Brigade?

I can understand if the minis aren't selling well enough to make it economically worth the risk, but thought I'd ask.

22 Reply by Go0gleplex (edited by Go0gleplex 2022-11-22 20:52:26)

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,284

Re: On Demand 3D Printing for Starmada and Iron Stars

Those that have been watching the Facebook groups I am involved in already know this;

I have over 200 ship miniature STL files I have designed posted at the link below; most for free if you have a 3D printer. For those not having a 3D printer, I have an agreement with Pulsefire Printing (US) and 3 Dimensional Dreams (Germany) allowing them to print any of the ship designs posted on the linked site should folks wish to order them. Ship sizes mostly range from 12 mm to 100 mm, give or take, though there are several ranging into the 120+ mm range. Stations, a jump gate, satellites, etc are also part of things designed. So if looking for something a bit different than the usual fare, check things out. smile 

https://cults3d.com/en/users/Go0gleplex/creations