Topic: Orders of Magnitude

I'd like to again point folks to my attempt at a campaign game, Orders of Magnitude (OoM).

Here's a photo of a mockup:

https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/oom/oom-mockup.JPG

Other files are here:

https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/oom/oom-3jan2010.pdf
https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/oom/tiles.pdf
https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/oom/tech-tree.pdf

I have tested this some. It appears to be a very playable game. I would be delighted if it had some influence on SovStars.

Some thoughts / designer's notes:

Obviously, I'm a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's maxim, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." I see no good reason to distinguish between, say, outpost, space stations, and starbases.

The "starcassonne" mechanism in OoM for galaxy building / exploration seems to work quite well. The reward for being connected to other players seems to help quite a bit; there is a backup "wormhole" mechanism in case someone is cut off, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

I have one player doing their entire turn before the next player does anything. This seems the simpler thing to do, but I'd be interested in hearing the merits of the alternative.

Being able to move three hexes, rather than just one, is important. I tried doing just one hex of movement (trying too hard to be simple), and it doesn't work: there aren't any surprises. Three seems to be the sweet spot; as is so often the case, Dan has found it. (Of course, if different units have different speeds, a whole new wormcan is opened.)

I'm not hugely excited about my victory conditions, but they work. It would be interesting to see several scenarios using the same system, e.g., invasion, battling empires, rebels vs empire, pirates...

I offer three levels of integration with Starmada. Maybe that's overkill and the middle one isn't needed.

Dan's idea of having a fleet correspond to a bunch of ships that aren't specified until combat time is a brilliant bookkeeping-avoidance device. I also like the idea of computing the CR of a damaged or depleted ship, and have tried to clean it up a bit.

In closing, let me point people to a fascinating book on game design I'm reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Game-Design-book-lenses/dp/0123694965/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262583527&sr=8-1

All this IMHO, FWIW. Happy empire-building!

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

Obviously, I'm a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's maxim, "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." I see no good reason to distinguish between, say, outpost, space stations, and starbases.

In my thinking, there are a couple reasons for the distinction... but I'm open to discussion:

1) It is a simple way of making starbase construction a multi-turn process.

2) It is a simple way of having starbases take multiple hits to destroy.

3) Outposts are just "supply points", while starbases allow new construction. I can see an argument that there is no difference between an outpost and a space station -- but there is room for expansion.

The "starcassonne" mechanism in OoM for galaxy building / exploration seems to work quite well. The reward for being connected to other players seems to help quite a bit; there is a backup "wormhole" mechanism in case someone is cut off, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

Please explain "starcassone".

I have one player doing their entire turn before the next player does anything. This seems the simpler thing to do, but I'd be interested in hearing the merits of the alternative.

One of the things I hate about empire-building games is waiting around for my turn... so it's really a personal preference rather than an objective "this is better than that".

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:
mundungus wrote:

I see no good reason to distinguish between, say, outpost, space stations, and starbases.

In my thinking, there are a couple reasons for the distinction... but I'm open to discussion:

1) It is a simple way of making starbase construction a multi-turn process.

2) It is a simple way of having starbases take multiple hits to destroy.

3) Outposts are just "supply points", while starbases allow new construction. I can see an argument that there is no difference between an outpost and a space station -- but there is room for expansion.

1 and 2 can be accomplished simply by limiting base purchases to one per system per turn. I don't have supply in my rules, so I don't have much to say about 3. I would like it if the system (or possibly  the system including optional rules) would generate convoy raids as an emergent effect.

The "starcassonne" mechanism in OoM for galaxy building / exploration seems to work quite well. The reward for being connected to other players seems to help quite a bit; there is a backup "wormhole" mechanism in case someone is cut off, but I haven't seen it happen yet.

Please explain "starcassone".

As I've wandered around this design space, I've sometimes thought of doing a 4X game that relies primarily on the tile-laying mechanism of the board game Carcassonne -- hence, Starcassonne. There's a bit of that going on here.

I have one player doing their entire turn before the next player does anything. This seems the simpler thing to do, but I'd be interested in hearing the merits of the alternative.

One of the things I hate about empire-building games is waiting around for my turn... so it's really a personal preference rather than an objective "this is better than that".

Eliminating downtime is a good thing in a face-to-face game. In a play-by-email game, it's probably more important to get as much done as possible before turning things over to the next player. I'm not sure which is better for a campaign game like this. Maybe doing a lot of simultaneous decision making (as in the plotted movement in Starmada) is good.

Being able to stop the game and record the state whenever a session happens to end is important for a campaign game. That argues for doing everything on paper, but that would be (to me) very unappealing if the game was being used as a board game without Starmada integration. If VBAM is out there (and being revised) for those who want a deeply detailed campaign, maybe SovStars should focus on the simpler end?

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

1 and 2 can be accomplished simply by limiting base purchases to one per system per turn. I don't have supply in my rules, so I don't have much to say about 3. I would like it if the system (or possibly  the system including optional rules) would generate convoy raids as an emergent effect.

Limiting base purchases to one per system per turn might take care of (1), but (2)? (i.e. how does limiting base purchases provide multi-hit bases?)

Convoy raids are certainly possible.

As I've wandered around this design space, I've sometimes thought of doing a 4X game that relies primarily on the tile-laying mechanism of the board game Carcassonne -- hence, Starcassonne. There's a bit of that going on here.

Sorry -- I should have been more clear. I've never played Carcassone, so I don't understand the reference.

If VBAM is out there (and being revised) for those who want a deeply detailed campaign, maybe SovStars should focus on the simpler end?

That's the intent. SovStars is not a campaign system -- it is a board game that can serve some campaign functions if players want it to do so.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

how does limiting base purchases provide multi-hit bases?

I guess it's really the ability to have multiple bases in the same system that provides multi-hit bases. In other words, where you have bases at three strengths, I represent the same thing by one, two, or three bases in the system.

Note the following from the "Light Bookkeeping" section of OoM:

When resolving a battle using Starmada, each side chooses forces of up to the indicated CR. If several units of the same type are present, it is legal to include a ship larger than any individual unit. Thus, a stack of three bases might represent one gigantic station.

cricket wrote:

Sorry -- I should have been more clear. I've never played Carcassone, so I don't understand the reference.

I recommend it. Carcassonne is one of my favorite "gateway games", used to introduce serious gaming to people who know of nothing but Monopoly and Scrabble.

That's the intent. SovStars is not a campaign system -- it is a board game that can serve some campaign functions if players want it to do so.

Noted.

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

Note the following from the "Light Bookkeeping" section of OoM:

When resolving a battle using Starmada, each side chooses forces of up to the indicated CR. If several units of the same type are present, it is legal to include a ship larger than any individual unit. Thus, a stack of three bases might represent one gigantic station.

Ah... I missed that.

So you are correct. The three-in-one nature of starbases can be achieved with generic "bases". However, I firmly believe that some form of supply/maintenance rules are critical in a game like this. So the question would be how to maintain that if the outpost/space station/starbase distinction is eliminated.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

The three-in-one nature of starbases can be achieved with generic "bases". However, I firmly believe that some form of supply/maintenance rules are critical in a game like this. So the question would be how to maintain that if the outpost/space station/starbase distinction is eliminated.

Maintenance rules can be good to prevent players from "turtling up", staying in place and building larger and larger navies.

Supply is only important if cutting off enemy supplies is a reasonable tactic. If players build empires without long tendrils and never launch expeditions deep into enemy territory, supply may be needless bookkeeping. On the other hand, if the rules can be engineered so that such missions are a good idea, life might become more interesting...

(I think the current OoM rules, which do not include supply, do encourage players to rush out and grab valuable choke points as the galaxy is discovered. Later in the game, forces are concentrated at such points, but some are also used for exploring the remaining territory, which can sometimes open new routes of attack.)

Assuming we do want such rules, we could simply require a continuous chain of friendly units back to a base (any base) to constitute supply. It might be reasonable to add a third type of unit, a convoy. This unit would have little if any combat ability, but would be much cheaper than a regular fleet (perhaps 2 or 3 for the price of a fleet).

Re: Orders of Magnitude

I admit I am going through a "minimalist" phase -- however, the concept of generic "bases" leaves me a bit cold, for some reason. Maybe it's the symmetry of the current system, with the progressive cost of units leading to a situation where outposts cost $1, space stations cost $5 and starbases cost $10.

Perhaps it could work like this:

SDF = $2 (1 battle die)
Fleet = $3 (2 battle dice)
Base = $5 (1 battle die)

Bases are needed to produce new units, one per base. Exception: a single base can be produced at any system where at least one SDF is present.

Maintenance is still $1 per unit.

Supply must be traced back to a friendly base, via a chain of controlled systems.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

I admit I am going through a "minimalist" phase -- however, the concept of generic "bases" leaves me a bit cold, for some reason.

Yeah, striking a balance between simplicity and richness it tricky. I love the game of Go but it's not big on story.

Perhaps it could work like this:

SDF = $2 (1 battle die)
Fleet = $3 (2 battle dice)
Base = $5 (1 battle die)

Bases are needed to produce new units, one per base. Exception: a single base can be produced at any system where at least one SDF is present.

Maintenance is still $1 per unit.

Supply must be traced back to a friendly base, via a chain of controlled systems.

I would argue for giving them all the same number of battle dice and just changing the prices. One parameter is easier to balance than two. When resolving battle, counting is always faster and easier than adding up a bunch of numbers, even small ones. If these units are all just abstract agglomerations of Starmada ships, it's easy to say that each one is of the same fighting strength. If the strategic value of their abilities can be balanced, making them all the same cost has an appeal, too.

Can you say more about why you believe supply and maintenance are essential? Are they worth the bookkeeping?

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

I would argue for giving them all the same number of battle dice and just changing the prices. One parameter is easier to balance than two. When resolving battle, counting is always faster and easier than adding up a bunch of numbers, even small ones.

I perceive the logic in this.

If these units are all just abstract agglomerations of Starmada ships, it's easy to say that each one is of the same fighting strength. If the strategic value of their abilities can be balanced, making them all the same cost has an appeal, too.

Well, the strategic values/limitations are as follows:

1) SDFs are needed to "control" a system, but cannot move on their own.

2) Fleets can move on their own, but cannot exert control over territory.

3) Bases are needed to build new units, but again, cannot move.

Frankly, I think the 2/3/5 progression reflects this quite well.

Can you say more about why you believe supply and maintenance are essential? Are they worth the bookkeeping?

As envisioned, there's no bookkeeping... simply count your units and pay that much.

Maintenance is important to prevent "turtling". Supply is not as essential -- and perhaps I'm over-complicating the game in that respect.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

1) SDFs are needed to "control" a system, but cannot move on their own.

2) Fleets can move on their own, but cannot exert control over territory.

3) Bases are needed to build new units, but again, cannot move.

What power do SDFs have that allows them to control systems where fleets cannot? Is it that they contain surface armies? If so, does it make more sense to separate the armies from the ships, rather than armies-and-control-oriented-ships from non-control-oriented-ships?

Can you say more about why you believe supply and maintenance are essential? Are they worth the bookkeeping?

As envisioned, there's no bookkeeping... simply count your units and pay that much.

...but you have to do that every turn. This slows things down. Are there better ways to prevent turtling?

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

What power do SDFs have that allows them to control systems where fleets cannot? Is it that they contain surface armies? If so, does it make more sense to separate the armies from the ships, rather than armies-and-control-oriented-ships from non-control-oriented-ships?

I envision SDFs as planetary forces as well as short-ranged space forces. I'm not sure I understand your choices: what are "non-control-oriented-ships"?

...but you have to do that every turn. This slows things down. Are there better ways to prevent turtling?

If there are, I'm listening.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

One of the things I hate about empire-building games is waiting around for my turn... so it's really a personal preference rather than an objective "this is better than that".

One possible solution could be to let the players do their turns simultaneously without any specific order. This may sound a little bit chaotic, but I know with mature players it is not. If there is a disagreement between 2 players (eg two players refuses to make all or part of their navies before one of his enemies does it - eg. because they want to see how the enemies places their ships) a special player is the judge who decides which player has to begin to move.

This could be combined with some "hour glass" mechanic, where there is a limited amount of real time is available to move his ships.

While simulatenous strategic movement is AFAIK not the standard (it works with mature players very good - for our gaming group I invented a 4x game with such a movement mechanic in order to cut boring waiting time - but this was years ago), working against the clock is indeed. For example the adorable Space Hulk uses a clock for the marine player.

Another mechanic could be the following. Everybody moves his navies simulataneously in eg a 4 player game. After the 1st and 2nd players are finished with their move, they say so. After the 3rd player is finished he says so AND he turns an hour glass which initializes the time limit for the 4th player.

I know this is totally strange mechanic for the average wargamer but OTOH its cuts the waiting between the turns considerably. Of course there is an additional drawback: movement of navies AND combatphases has to be divided in 2 seperate phases and no pinning of fleets is possible. (because every movement is "simultaneous")

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:
mundungus wrote:

What power do SDFs have that allows them to control systems where fleets cannot? Is it that they contain surface armies? If so, does it make more sense to separate the armies from the ships, rather than armies-and-control-oriented-ships from non-control-oriented-ships?

I envision SDFs as planetary forces as well as short-ranged space forces. I'm not sure I understand your choices: what are "non-control-oriented-ships"?

I guess it strikes me as odd that fleets can't control systems.

Maybe it's not worth distinguishing hyper-capable and non-hyper-capable fleets (at least not in the basic rules). Instead, allow each fleet to carry one army. On the planet's surface, armies fight each other the way fleets fight in space, except that:

1) An invasion can't begin if the defender has a fleet or base in the system.
2) Invading armies can't retreat.
3) Fleets can choose to be involved in the battle; they can retreat to deep space, remaining in the system but not taking part in the battle anymore.
4) Bases must be involved in the battle (because they're presumably in orbit).

So, something like:

Army: $1, fights on planet, can be carried
Fleet: $3, fights on planet or space (can retreat from surface battle), can move and carry one army
Base: $5, fights on planet or space, involved in production

Are there better ways to prevent turtling?

If there are, I'm listening.

One possibility is victory points that accumulate from turn to turn; everyone but the one currently gaining the most has a vested interest in disrupting the status quo.

Another is to make the game end when, after (say) three complete turns, no systems have changed hands. Ooh, I kinda like that...

Re: Orders of Magnitude

mundungus wrote:

I guess it strikes me as odd that fleets can't control systems.

Why?

Think of SDFs (or armies, or corps, or whatever) as providing the necessary infrastructure to actually exploit a system's resources. Fleets can "control" in the sense that they can fight off potential rivals, but you still need the ground-pounders.

Maybe it's not worth distinguishing hyper-capable and non-hyper-capable fleets (at least not in the basic rules). Instead, allow each fleet to carry one army. On the planet's surface, armies fight each other the way fleets fight in space, except that:

I would REALLY prefer to avoid separate "space battle" and "planet battle" steps.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

Think of SDFs (or armies, or corps, or whatever) as providing the necessary infrastructure to actually exploit a system's resources. Fleets can "control" in the sense that they can fight off potential rivals, but you still need the ground-pounders.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess I'd thought of that infrastructure (and, indeed, some non-hyper-capable ships) as being part of a base.

That's why, in OoM:

Fleets move, fight, and hold systems for victory purposes
Bases fight, produce, and hold systems for either income or victory purposes

In production (or, more precisely, placement), each base can produce one ship. One base can be produced per occupied system.

What is gained from adding the portable SDFs? They certainly make things (a little bit) more complicated. Do they add some interesting new decisions, or is it just that having only two types of units feels too bland?

BTW, bland is not at all a bad thing in a campaign system. The Simplest Campaign System works extremely well (although of course it wouldn't work as a board game). Okay, we did spice it up with terrain, but that's all.

I would REALLY prefer to avoid separate "space battle" and "planet battle" steps.

Agreed -- this is, after all, a game about spaceships.

Re: Orders of Magnitude

Another reason I like the idea of a maintenance cost:

If players know their empires can only support X number of units, it makes the decision on what to build that much more important. For example, building another base not only costs more money, it also takes away the ability to support an additional fleet or army.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

cricket wrote:

Another reason I like the idea of a maintenance cost:

If players know their empires can only support X number of units, it makes the decision on what to build that much more important. For example, building another base not only costs more money, it also takes away the ability to support an additional fleet or army.

I think that maintenance cost are a good thing too. I think in a "conquer the galaxy" game, some logistics/supply rules are also a good thing as there is a time honored tradition in science fiction of flanking a fleet, cutting its supply lines, and forcing it to a halt or possibly even turning it back. Basic book-keeping for such things doesn't make a ridiculous amount of paperwork in a strategic level game and increases the decision making which is what such a game should be all about anyway.
Erik

Re: Orders of Magnitude

Blacklancer99 wrote:

I think in a "conquer the galaxy" game, some logistics/supply rules are also a good thing as there is a time honored tradition in science fiction of flanking a fleet, cutting its supply lines, and forcing it to a halt or possibly even turning it back. Basic book-keeping for such things doesn't make a ridiculous amount of paperwork in a strategic level game and increases the decision making which is what such a game should be all about anyway.

A thought: Maintenance cost is doubled for any units not in the same sector as, or in a sector adjacent to, a friendly base.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Orders of Magnitude

I am not fond of paperworking. I would prefer not to write even a single note on paper in SS. Keep it simple.
OTOH I would love to see a way how to circumvent the trap of amassing more and stacks of ships. In MOO2 they had a base ship limit to prevent this. Eg. a base "delivered" so and so many ship command points. If you build x bases then you have y CPs. Each ship need not only production points, it needed also a fixed amount of CPs if you want to operate it. This lead in a very simple and elegant way to hinder a player to amass a ridicolous amount of ships, only because he has the production capacity for it.

Possibly in SS one could have a similar system. eg. 1 base provide the right for producing 1 or 2 fleets (or so). The amount of bases could be limited either to a hard number of 10? or it could be dependent on the amount of specific solar systems. (bases can only be built in sun or colony type A-C) Thinkable is also a type of "elite" or "command fleet" which is independent and dont need any bases but each race only has 1.

Re: Orders of Magnitude

Enpeze wrote:

I am not fond of paperworking. I would prefer not to write even a single note on paper in SS. Keep it simple.

Hear, hear! (This may change if many optional rules are used, especially when incorporating with Starmada, but a stand-alone board game should at worst require pencils for scoring.)

OTOH I would love to see a way how to circumvent the trap of amassing more and stacks of ships.

I don't think that's directly the problem. The problem is when people choose to amass ships rather than exploring or fighting and the game becomes a stalemate.

Some kind of game "clock" would work wonders to prevent stalemates. The simplest clock is what older versions of Starmada scenario uses: the game ends after N turns. Games like Mastermind, Carcassonne, Agricola, and (to a lesser extent) Scrabble use this mechanism. More interesting is a clock that can be sped up or slowed down (but not stopped) by players' actions, as in Lost Cities, Tigris & Euphrates, Container, Ticket to Ride and Puerto Rico.

More discussion of this issue can be found here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/32208/temporal-shifts-timing-mechanisms

Re: Orders of Magnitude

game clock sounds good and I would say this is the way to go for scenarios. But what if you want a play a campaign without pressure of time.

A "tempo" mechanic to bring more action into the game is for example the (above post) mechanic that bases produces command points which allow a player to build fleets. If you allow only an amount of x bases per solar system, this means that he has to expand to found new bases and not just fortify and defend. This would inevitably lead to a dynamic game.

Re: Orders of Magnitude

Enpeze wrote:

A "tempo" mechanic to bring more action into the game is for example the (above post) mechanic that bases produces command points which allow a player to build fleets. If you allow only an amount of x bases per solar system, this means that he has to expand to found new bases and not just fortify and defend. This would inevitably lead to a dynamic game.

A similar limit is present in the current maintenance costs: since each system generates $3 per turn, you can only have three times as many units as you have systems. That leaves very few units for expeditionary forces. Also, since movement is so slow, you can't hope to coordinate a bunch of units for a surprise attack; the enemy will see them marching to the front.

You could theoretically increase your income with the bonus for bases in shared systems, but we found such systems too hard to build. For an alliance of two players to gain anything from this, they would need (combined) at least three bases in the system. (With two, nobody owns the system.) This costs $15 plus the time to move armies there and then build the bases, as well as the maintenance for the units involved. The player who contributes one base gets only $2 per turn; after $1 to maintain the base, that means this won't pay off for 5 turns. The player who contributes two bases gets only $1 additional per turn -- only enough to maintain the second base!

Re: Orders of Magnitude

Mundungus,
Your link to OOM is not working. I sent a PM to you, requesting a copy of OOM for review. I am interested in beefing up SovStar and would like to see what you have created.

BTW, lots of really good discussions here. My sense is that some folks are interested, like me, in an upgraded version of SovStar. I have two old copies of SovStar. One was an e-copy version and the other is the hardcopy Twilight Imperium integration version. The original SovStar had a hex-tile laying mechanism like TI with systems generating resources, etc. etc. I think I may still have the pdf files for the tiles. We use to play a set gameboard, and the players get dealt hex-tiles face down. Each player would then take turns flipping over one of their tiles and placing it on the board.

I like the thought of trade routes between systems, both internal and between players, generating income and providing opportunities for commerce raiding (for income).

I propose a simplified combat system mentioned on another post for encounters that the players choose not to use Starmada to resolve (craziness not to use Starmada, but ok perhaps too many battles to resolve for turn).