Topic: High Engines Issues

We played our first game testing out my conversion for the B5 WhiteStar VS Earth Hyperions ships.  There was a big issue with the WS high engines compared to the Earth's low engines.  It was pretty much impossible to hit the WS once my friend had worked out out he could use them.

The WS have engines of 13 with overthrusters, stealth and a long range weapon.
The Hyperions have 4 engines.

The WS could simply move away, pivot round and fire, the Hyperions could not get in range.  The points are 400 for a WS and 320 for a Hyperion.  They should be pretty similar.

We are simply going to change the formulas for working out engine rating so everything comes down by a percentage, the WS will come down the most.  However has anyone else experienced this?

Re: High Engines Issues

Maybe you could tone down the WS engine.

What are their stats (weapons included)?

Marc

Re: High Engines Issues

Several thoughts floating around my brain on this:

1) There are historical examples of situations in which the superior force (at least on "paper") was outmatched by the inability to close range. (One example is Troubridge's pursuit of the Goeben in 1914.)

2) However, issue #1 should be mitigated by the constraints of the wargaming table. Goeben was considered a superior force by the Brits because she could keep the range open indefinitely; in your situation, the Hyperions should have been able to close the range within a couple turns, since the White Stars are restrained by the board edge, right?

3) Regardless, point values 400 to 320 are not "pretty similar"... That's the equivalent of a nearly 60% increase in firepower! smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: High Engines Issues

From what I remember of the television program, your Whitestars are doing pretty much what they are supposed to be doing. The ones in Babylon 5 always dashed around, firing at long range, and then running away before their enemies could retaliate. In other words, they were intended to be used for guerrilla warfare.

    You should be proud that your design matches this so well. As for the performance of the Hyperions, other than the hanger for a Starfury squadron, they seemed mostly to fight at short range.

      From the conversions for Whitestars that I have seen, the ship has little more defense against fighters than another fighter would. How well did the Whitestar fare against a Starfury squadron?

      Re: High Engines Issues

      A Whitestar should beat a Hyperion every time, and a well flown one should be able to handle a single flight of fighters as well. Still, an engine rating of 13 seems a wee bit on the high side, even for a vessel that flies "at the speed of plot." I guess it would depend on the baseline ranges for the weapons involved. But I agree with the earlier response that it sounds like it just done what a Whitestar should do! Between the long range of its main beam weapon, its stealth characteristics, along with its agility and speed, it would probably take a series of improbably lucky shots for a Hyperion to win (even if the WS captain strayed too close).The arcs of a Hyperion's heavy weapons are so limited that a WS should be able to use broadside passes to avoid getting shot at and pivots to bring its own weapons to bear. This tactic would work even on a fixed map if the WS is patient.
      Cheers,
      Erik

      Re: High Engines Issues

      Thanks for the responses.  I am happy with how the conversions are going so far, but I do need to have a game where a  400 point ship stands an equal chance against another 400 point ship.

      I've changed the engine calc now and the Hyperion has gone down to 3 and the Whitestar down to 9.  It's still a 3-1 ratio but the WS will now have less options.  Pivoting 3 still costs 2 (due to overthrusters) but now it's 2 from 9 instead of 13.  It's still the fastest ship I've converted so far, and will still perform as expected but at least the Hyperions have a chance.  1 on 1, maybe not but that won't happen often.

      The points are now about 360 for WS and 300 for the Hyperion so they are coming more in line with B5 Wars points ratios (they were almost the same in B5 Wars). 

      I'll let you know how the next test goes.

      Re: High Engines Issues

      JohnRobert wrote:

      From what I remember of the television program, your WhiteStars are doing pretty much what they are supposed to be doing. The ones in Babylon 5 always dashed around, firing at long range, and then running away before their enemies could retaliate. In other words, they were intended to be used for guerrilla warfare.

        You should be proud that you design matches this so well. As for the performance of the Hyperions, other than the hanger for a Starfury squadron, they seemed mostly to fight at short range.

          From the conversions for WhiteStars that I have seen, the ship has little more defence against fighters than another fighter would. How well did the WhiteStar fare against a Starfury squadron?

          I haven't done fighters yet, so when I do the hyperion points will go up to meet the WS.  I think this will help, but as it stand they should still stand a chance.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Just a question on the conversion of the Whitestar. Why does it have stealth? Is it based on the one from B5 Wars, which was never able to power the jammer and the neutron laser at the same time? Perhaps simply removing stealth may help a bit. Call me a heretic, but using a jammer against a foe (mainly shadows, but later vorlons too) which both simply ignored it according to B5W makes no sense to me.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Lone Gunman wrote:

          Just a question on the conversion of the Whitestar. Why does it have stealth? Is it based on the one from B5 Wars, which was never able to power the jammer and the neutron laser at the same time? Perhaps simply removing stealth may help a bit. Call me a heretic, but using a jammer against a foe (mainly shadows, but later vorlons too) which both simply ignored it according to B5W makes no sense to me.

          Oh, I didn't realise that.  I just saw it had a jammer and gave it stealth.  I used to own B5 wars but never played it properly due to it taking so long.  I've read some of the rules recently for the conversions but not everything. 

          I'll take off stealth in that case, cheers!

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Lone Gunman wrote:

          Just a question on the conversion of the Whitestar. Why does it have stealth? Is it based on the one from B5 Wars, which was never able to power the jammer and the neutron laser at the same time? Perhaps simply removing stealth may help a bit. Call me a heretic, but using a jammer against a foe (mainly shadows, but later vorlons too) which both simply ignored it according to B5W makes no sense to me.

          It should have Stealth as the Jammer works against the vast majority of races, and First One races will have to have some offsetting advantage. You can justify its use pretty simply I think...even in B5Wars you could shoot the NL, then shut it down in favor of the Jammer while running in to strafe with the Molecular Pulsars. There are also examples of Trekmada ships that have all of the systems available in FC/SFB even though they couldn't power them all at once in the original game.
          Just my opinion of course,
          Erik

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Countermeasures is enough to portray the jammer.

          Marc

          Re: High Engines Issues

          You could either shut off the jammer for the game or go without the molecular pulsars. Both did not work back in B5W. And if the Laser was destroyer the jammer would go offline as the laser would still use its power. Strange, but it worked this way.  Also, from a fluff point of view, the WS was created fighting Firts Ones. Why use a Jammer which would be ignored by them (granted you would not take them after beating them in the face to conquer the whole galaxie. How new?  big_smile  )

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Blacklancer99 wrote:
          Lone Gunman wrote:

          Just a question on the conversion of the Whitestar. Why does it have stealth? Is it based on the one from B5 Wars, which was never able to power the jammer and the neutron laser at the same time? Perhaps simply removing stealth may help a bit. Call me a heretic, but using a jammer against a foe (mainly shadows, but later vorlons too) which both simply ignored it according to B5W makes no sense to me.

          It should have Stealth as the Jammer works against the vast majority of races, and First One races will have to have some offsetting advantage. You can justify its use pretty simply I think...even in B5Wars you could shoot the NL, then shut it down in favor of the Jammer while running in to strafe with the Molecular Pulsars. There are also examples of Trekmada ships that have all of the systems available in FC/SFB even though they couldn't power them all at once in the original game.
          Just my opinion of course,
          Erik

          Thanks for another view on this.  I'm tending to lean your way on this.  I'm going to first test the speed changes and then make a decision on stealth.  I think I'd rather avoid taking into account power issues that were present in B5Wars as that's adding complexity.  I'll read up on the B5 wars rules and decide then, but I think I'd rather keep all the tech available on a ship and not go into minute details.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          We tested the reduced engine sizes last night and it was a great success.  The WiteStar at engines 9 still felt like they should with plenty of options for movement.  However if you're not careful you do get into a bit of bother.  Once you make a mistake you've generally had it, as the WS is pretty weak.  This is exctly what we want.

          I'm happy with the engine calculation for my conversions now.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          The Earth Hyperion was a very old ship when the White Stars came out.
          They should probably be outmatched.
          BUT the white stars were pretty small ships perhaps a lucky shot might take one out?

          Re: High Engines Issues

          What fomula did you use for calculating the new engine stats?

          diddimus wrote:

          I've changed the engine calc now and the Hyperion has gone down to 3 and the Whitestar down to 9.  It's still a 3-1 ratio but the WS will now have less options.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Here's my formula for engine conversions from B5 Wars.  Note that the turn cost and turn delay numbers are like fractions in B5W so you need the decimal version to put into the formula below. 


          [Engine Power] / ["Acc/Dec" Cost]
          +
          ([Engine Power] / [Turn Cost]) / 20
          +
          (10 / [Turn Delay]) / 20
          =
          Round to nearest whole number
          =
          TOTAL ENGINE RATING


          So a White Star is:

          12 / 2 = 6
          +
          (12 / 0.333) / 20 = 1.8
          +
          (10 / 0.333) / 20 = 1.5
          =
          TOTAL = 9.3 = 9 Engines

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Your formula gives very interesting results. Thanks a lot!

          Marc

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Here's my list, it might save you some time...

          Race    Name    Engine
          Centauri    Altarian    5
          Centauri    Amar    8
          Centauri    Balvarin    4
          Centauri    Centurion    6
          Centauri    Covran    6
          Centauri    Darkner    8
          Centauri    Demos    8
          Centauri    Octurion    4
          Centauri    Primus    5
          EA    Artimis    5
          EA    Avenger    3
          EA    Hermes    7
          EA    Hyperion    3
          EA    Olympus Gunship    5
          EA    Omega    4
          EA    Orestes    2
          EA    Poseidon    4
          EA    Sagittarius    4
          ISA    Blue Star    10
          ISA    Victory    4
          Minbari    Ashinta    5
          Minbari    Morshin    5
          Minbari    Sharlin    3
          Minbari    Tigara    4
          Minbari    Tinashi    5
          Minbari    Torotha    4
          Minbari/ISA    White Star    9
          Narn    Bin'Tak    4
          Narn    Dag'Kar    5
          Narn    G'Quan    6
          Narn    Ka'Toc    5
          Narn    Sho'Kov    9
          Narn    T'Loth    4
          Narn    T'Rann    4
          Scout    Oracle    5
          Shadows    Carrier    8
          Shadows    Cruiser    8
          Shadows    Destroyer    8
          Shadows    Scout    8
          Vorlon    Battle Destroyer    6
          Vorlon    Dreadnought    5
          Vorlon    Heavy Destroyer    5
          Vorlon    Light Cruiser    6
          Vorlon    Scout    6

          Re: High Engines Issues

          Hey, thanks!

          Marc

          Re: High Engines Issues

          BTW, how do you determine fighters speed?

          Marc

          Re: High Engines Issues

          I simply took "Free Thrust" - 4


          EA    Starfury    8
          EA    Thunderbolt    9
          Minbari    Nial    10
          Centauri    Sentri    8
          Shadows    Medium    11
          Centauri    Razik    10
          Vorlon    Heavy    10
          Narn    Frazi    6

          Re: High Engines Issues

          I simply took free thrust and it looked a bit fast. I will try something like you did. Maybe decide that the Starfury is the 'medium fighter' (currentl speed 10 att 5+ with nothing special and work out other fighters on this basis.

          Marc

          Re: High Engines Issues

          diddimus wrote:

          Here's my formula for engine conversions from B5 Wars. Note that the turn cost and turn delay numbers are like fractions in B5W so you need the decimal version to put into the formula below.


          [Engine Power] / ["Acc/Dec" Cost]
          +
          ([Engine Power] / [Turn Cost]) / 20
          +
          (10 / [Turn Delay]) / 20
          =
          Round to nearest whole number
          =
          TOTAL ENGINE RATING

          I like your formula for conversion. It will yield more satisfactory results on Earth Alliance ships (they will still be slow, but not painfully so) than my existing practice of dividing the Engine Power by the cost of Acceleration. I will revise my Starmada: Fleet Operations conversions on this basis, but it will take a considerable while. I would like
          to know why you chose 20 as the required divisor for the Turn Cost and Turn Delay? I am simply trying to understand the reasoning behind the formula.

          Re: High Engines Issues

          I would like
          to know why you chose 20 as the required divisor for the Turn Cost and Turn Delay? I am simply trying to understand the reasoning behind the formula.

          Short answer:  Random.

          Long answer: I wanted both turn delay and turn cost to make a difference to speed rather than just using engine and acc/dec.  However I wanted it to be a small increase. I started with just the basic formula but that added too much in comparison to the base speed.  I wanted a smaller overall effect of these two factors, so I started with divide by 10 and kept increasing this until I thought it represented the ships as I wanted them.

          All my formulas were created on a few sample ships that I thought represented B5.  I kept working on them until these ships felt right.  Then every other ship was converted using the same rules.

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