Topic: How long do your average battles last?

I'm less interested in real time, than I am in how many turns of shooting tend to occur.

I ask because I've only played through some dogfights/duels to learn the rules of the game, and when it comes to ship design with Seekers/Strikers, it would be nice to know if the number of flights you're giving a missile frigate are sufficient, extravagant, or inadequate.

So, what's your experience looked like?

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Usually, about 4 or 5 turns after shooting starts. And usually, shooting starts fairly early (sometimes during the first turn).

Marc

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Is that because of relatively small maps, or a tendency to use longer-ranged weaponry?

Re: How long do your average battles last?

We tended to see about 4 turns total, of which there were usually 3 turns of shooting, which for my cloakers meant cloak-move, move-decloak-shoot, cloak-move, move-decloak-shoot, and then the game ended one way or another.  And we used a much-oversized map, with max weapon range of 15, so I don't think it was because of small map / long guns...

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Had a game the other day that only lasted 4 turns.  We use the map size suggested in the rulebook.  We had some pretty long range weapons as well as strikers/seekers on both sides.

IMHO strikers-seekers-ammo are not really balanced for the length of our games.

-Tim

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Yeah, 4-5 turns sounds remarkably short, but then my last tabletop wargaming experience was SFB about, oh, 15 years ago... Do any of you experienced Starmada players have any ideas for how to extend battles to something a bit longer than that?

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Marauder wrote:

IMHO strikers-seekers-ammo are not really balanced for the length of our games.

FWIW... ammo is point-costed based on an expectation (for the smallest ships) that you will get at least two shots out of a normal weapon. Thus, the ORAT for a weapon with one "shot" is 50% that of a normal weapon. For the largest ships, the expectation is that you'll get at least six shots out of your normal weapons.

Interestingly, some recent simulated battles seem to indicate that this is still OVER-costing weapons with ammo... hmm

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: How long do your average battles last?

I had noticed that the ORAT of ships that I create with numerous flights of seekers tends to be... significant. smile It made me wonder if seekers are really that significantly more powerful than ship-based weapons. Given that they are in some sense similar to restricted ammo, then I can see the logic of the increased value.

Re: How long do your average battles last?

jwpacker wrote:

Yeah, 4-5 turns sounds remarkably short, but then my last tabletop wargaming experience was SFB about, oh, 15 years ago... Do any of you experienced Starmada players have any ideas for how to extend battles to something a bit longer than that?

Most of the games I have played are decided withing 4-5 turns of "when the shooting starts", usually preceded by 2-3 turns of maneuvering for position. I've had a few games run longer, usually because of terrain or mission considerations, and had one game that ran something like 12 turns as both sides refused to die! I personally feel that the best thing to make games last longer and more interesting is to keep weapon ranges shorter. I would much rather have a bunch of ships constantly jockeying for position like a macro scale dogfight than a game where the two side sit on opposite sides of the map just pounding away with their respective super guns. I also have used the optional damage control rules and like the fact that while a bit random and wonky to some people, they do keep ships "in the fight" longer and generally make things more interesting to me at least.
Also, I have used ships with Ammo-dependent weapons and have not found them any more "unbalancing" than some of the trait combinations that have been highlighted by others. MadSeason and I played a short, enjoyable campaign in which he triumphed against my fleet which featured Ammo based main weapons. Maybe it says something about my "poor" design skills, but on more than one occasion my ships shot their magazines dry and were forced to try to battle on with their secondary armaments.   sad
I think the best advice for any players of Starmada is to play around with the system until you find what you (and your buddies) find enjoyable. If you want to impress the chicks with your super mega spinal mount destructor cannon mounted on a hull 25 battlewagon, great. On the other hand you may find that it is fun to play with lots of small to middling ships zipping all over.
Just my 2 cents,
Cheers,
Erik

Re: How long do your average battles last?

jwpacker wrote:

Is that because of relatively small maps, or a tendency to use longer-ranged weaponry?

Both.
I play with a mat, 1.2m deep, about 5 cm per hex. Thus you have about 25 hexes from one side to the other. With an average speed of 5, both fleet may be about 15 hexes after one move. When you play with SFU, that's the range of most weapons. Otherwise, it depends of the universe.

Marc

Re: How long do your average battles last?

cricket wrote:
Marauder wrote:

IMHO strikers-seekers-ammo are not really balanced for the length of our games.

FWIW... ammo is point-costed based on an expectation (for the smallest ships) that you will get at least two shots out of a normal weapon. Thus, the ORAT for a weapon with one "shot" is 50% that of a normal weapon. For the largest ships, the expectation is that you'll get at least six shots out of your normal weapons.

Interestingly, some recent simulated battles seem to indicate that this is still OVER-costing weapons with ammo... hmm

Dan please notice that I said the "length of our games" and not everyone's games.  The last game I had my opponent's 700pt battleship took out my 961pt Battlecarrier (hull 16, armour plating, shields 5+) on turn 2.  He had a pair of [G] arc weapons that were RNG: 24 ACC:2+ IMP:4 DMG:2, Ignore shields, increased impact, continuing damage.  That boils down to about 8d6 damage per hit.  I was lucky not to die on turn 1 (he missed with one despite having fire control as well).

I think it comes down to how over-the-top-crazy people get with their weapons.  If you can reign the weapons in to something more akin to what is in the official starmada supplements I'm sure Ammo works out fine.  It can be broken though.  In the example above if he used ammo it could have taken out both my capital ships on turn 1!

Dan I'm not sure if you've ever considered it, but some it would be great for both new-comers and people-who-play-against-power-gamers if you came up with some "official tournament rules for starship construction" which would limit/restrict some of the nastier combinations you can get in the game - you know to promote longer games that are based on in game tactics rather than "winning by design".

Re: How long do your average battles last?

I have to agree, the game win goes to the player with the best design rather then the best tactics.

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Marauder wrote:

Dan please notice that I said the "length of our games" and not everyone's games.

Noted, although I'm not sure why it matters... I was only trying to explain the point-costing rationale.

Dan I'm not sure if you've ever considered it, but some it would be great for both new-comers and people-who-play-against-power-gamers if you came up with some "official tournament rules for starship construction"

I'm listening for any suggestions...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: How long do your average battles last?

cricket wrote:
Marauder wrote:

Dan please notice that I said the "length of our games" and not everyone's games.

Noted, although I'm not sure why it matters... I was only trying to explain the point-costing rationale.

Sorry if I came across negatively there that wasn't my intention.  Your rationale is sound.  I just think that ammo starts to be come unbalanced when games get shorter in length.  For instance if our games only last 4 rounds and I take 4 ammo I'm getting a pretty good deal.

Dan I'm not sure if you've ever considered it, but some it would be great for both new-comers and people-who-play-against-power-gamers if you came up with some "official tournament rules for starship construction"

I'm listening for any suggestions...

Edit: moved this part to the other thread:

http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2980&p=23669#p23669

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Inari7 wrote:

I have to agree, the game win goes to the player with the best design rather then the best tactics.

This, a thousand times.  This is the truth, unless somebody happens to make a really terrible tactical error, and even then sometimes.  This is almost exactly why my group eventually stopped playing 'mada.

And yeah...  Ammo is really, really good.  I once fielded two variants of a flotilla, one of which used ammo, and the other of which did not.  The non-ammo version mounted two torpedo tubes per ship, and served reliably but without acclaim.  The ammo version mounted 10 tubes per ship, each with one ammo, and earned great distinction (and a subsequent ban) when a squadron of them annihilated an undamaged battleship worth easily thrice their CRAT in one salvo (granted, they were done after that, but they had more than earned their keep).  And these were not fantastic weapons; range 12, RoF1, Imp1, Dam1, Double Range Mods, Slow Firing in the G arc.

Rule for exploiting ammo: Take any weapon that you want to hit the enemy with on turn 1.  Instead, mount five of them with ammo 1 each.  If the enemy is still standing after you fire them all, then you didn't use a big enough weapon.  You probably weren't going to get 5 turns of shooting, but you almost certainly will get one turn of shooting, and ammo lets you condense five turns of firing into one turn, at probably an ORAT cost of x2 or so, and the cost of not being able to fire those weapons again later...  which is only a penalty if conditions for firing them were going to get better (solution: inverted range mods), or if you were going to get more than 5 turns of shooting (improbable...).  This way you also get all the damage up-front, which means early systems damage, kills, and VP, which makes the rest of the game easier than if you had been firing once per turn for five turns, making ammo weapons significantly better than firing once per turn for five turns.  It's just bonkers good.  And once you get to hull >25, you're actually getting free ORAT for ammo (unless I'm misreading something...).

Marauder wrote:

I just think that ammo starts to be come unbalanced when games get shorter in length. For instance if our games only last 4 rounds and I take 4 ammo I'm getting a pretty good deal.

The trick there is that the more you use ammo, the shorter the game gets...  self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: How long do your average battles last?

Nomad wrote:
Inari7 wrote:

I have to agree, the game win goes to the player with the best design rather then the best tactics.

This, a thousand times.

Sorry -- I don't want to seem defensive, but I don't "get" this. If there are options or traits that are "must haves" or are so powerful as to prohibit any effective counter, I'm not aware of it...

Certainly, there are designs that are going to be more or less effective against a given opponent, but I don't know that anyone's come up with a fleet that is simply unbeatable in all circumstances.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: How long do your average battles last?

cricket wrote:
Nomad wrote:
Inari7 wrote:

I have to agree, the game win goes to the player with the best design rather then the best tactics.

This, a thousand times.

Sorry -- I don't want to seem defensive, but I don't "get" this. If there are options or traits that are "must haves" or are so powerful as to prohibit any effective counter, I'm not aware of it...

Certainly, there are designs that are going to be more or less effective against a given opponent, but I don't know that anyone's come up with a fleet that is simply unbeatable in all circumstances.

I can't speak for others, but in reading up on the game online, the most common complaint I saw was that longest range weapons (be that 18 or 30) with traits like Ignores Shields and Double Inverse Range Mods were effectively impossible to beat without having exactly the same sort of options. I'm curious what you would do in terms of countering that particular strategy?

Re: How long do your average battles last?

jwpacker wrote:

I can't speak for others, but in reading up on the game online, the most common complaint I saw was that longest range weapons (be that 18 or 30) with traits like Ignores Shields and Double Inverse Range Mods were effectively impossible to beat without having exactly the same sort of options. I'm curious what you would do in terms of countering that particular strategy?

Against that particular combination, I would consider a couple things:

1) Low shield ratings (to negate the "ignores shields" trait)*.

2) High thrust ratings (to close the distance more quickly).

3) A larger number of smaller ships. Spread the wealth... smile

4) Fighters/seekers.

I would NOT bother with things like countermeasures. This is because to-hit penalties are proportionally less effective when the target number is lower. With Double Inverse Range Modifiers, the minimum target number is going to be 4+, and could be as low as 2+. At that level, you're overpaying for countermeasures -- a multiplier of 1.5 vs. a 20% reduction in expected hits.

(I love these conversations -- for me it's part of the fun. wink Please know, however, that I am more than happy to consider altering the point costs for options or traits that seem out of whack... There's a difference between something that just needs to be valued more when constructing a ship and something that breaks the game.)

* Note that by "lower" I mean shield ratings of 3 or less. At those levels, the benefit your opponent receives (no more than twice as many expected hits) doesn't match the cost of the weapon trait (2.5).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: How long do your average battles last?

I, too, love these conversations, and really appreciate how accessible you are (quite so for me, as I'm in Commerce City, just up the road a piece, *and* I went to college with Admiral Drake).

What you say hinges on the idea that you know, going in, what your opponent has selected for weaponry. I agree that in any sensible game, that is reasonable. You allow for the fact that the enemy knows, to some degree, your tricks each of you have honed your technology and strategy against one another's defensive whetstones. I guess the lesson I'm taking is that the notion of "best or sneakiest build trumps tactics" is an artifact of allowing someone carte blanche and a CRAT budget instead of giving them some manner of framework to work within.

That said, what size maps do you play on, and with what average thrusts and ranges, as a rule of thumb?

Re: How long do your average battles last?

jwpacker wrote:

really appreciate how accessible you are (quite so for me, as I'm in Commerce City, just up the road a piece

Well, until Saturday.

What you say hinges on the idea that you know, going in, what your opponent has selected for weaponry. I agree that in any sensible game, that is reasonable. You allow for the fact that the enemy knows, to some degree, your tricks each of you have honed your technology and strategy against one another's defensive whetstones. I guess the lesson I'm taking is that the notion of "best or sneakiest build trumps tactics" is an artifact of allowing someone carte blanche and a CRAT budget instead of giving them some manner of framework to work within.

True. Which is why I can get behind the idea of a "tournament" set of options/rules.

That said, what size maps do you play on, and with what average thrusts and ranges, as a rule of thumb?

Roughly 24-30 hexes across, with thrusts in the 4-6 range. Weapon ranges span the gamut from 6 to 18 (I find the 24 and 30-hex ranges too large for my tastes).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: How long do your average battles last?

I think another factor might be the "optional rules" people are using.  They may be exacerbating certain combos or strategies.  For instance we use only the basic movement - and I think that actually makes it a lot easier to be effective with "G" arc weapons - especially since moving backwards is so easy.

Cricket I agree that most things have a reasonable counter.  The problem in a tournament or campaign setting is that you don't have time to react to your opponents design, and if extreme enough no amount of tactics are going to help you overcome the design advantage.

The only two combos I have found that are pretty darn near broken are:

-Piercing +2/+3 with increased impact (gets you both if you have good or bad shields)

AND

-2+ accuracy, increased hits, repeating

I realize the increased traits are really hard to price because their effectiveness is linked to the probability of hitting/penetrating.   

To a lesser extent i think expensive seekers are too deadly.  I think the fighter traits have been priced kind of assuming that they only modified the "offensive portion" of the fighter.  For seekers/strikers I'm not sure this pans out because they really don't have to worry about defense very much.

-Tim

Re: How long do your average battles last?

I must admit to sometimes designing cheesy weapons (well, not the full-on cheesy weapons, but my EM Torpedoes are absolutely deadly, and I've stopped the continuing damage+catastrophic combo entirely (almost endless engine, shield and weapon damage plus on averag 3.5 hull hits is possibly the Camembert of weapon designs)), but for me the most enjoyment is having battleships that can duel with each other without being one-sided.

Re: How long do your average battles last?

The map we use is fifty hexes long, and c30 wide.  It is a felt map from GeoHex.  our ships are all Tech zero so the speed of the larger ships is 3, 4 , or 5.  We us max range of 18 on weapons.  We don't use seekers or strikers because we think they are too powerful.  This is my fault for designing brutal ones I called them Ionic Torpedoes) that were speed 15, bomber,  halved shields, 3+ to hit, three damage and had continuing damage.  They were a bit costly, but too often gave my side victory.  We do allow, and sometimes use fighters.
Our first and second turns are manuevering and getting into range.  Usually we get into long range turn three and the firing begins.  The game then last from three to five turns.  We play sides and each player gets 2,000 points.  We played two games with four people on Monday.  Each game took c2 hours.  Lots of fun! 
(We are playing Friday, at Gaming Glenn's store in Davie, Fla.)