Topic: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Welcome to the first in a series of mini-articles describing the whys and wherefores of the new edition of Starmada. Today's topic: Attack Dice.

In previous editions, the basic premise has been that each individual weapon mount rolls one or more dice to determine hits. For each hit, one or more dice is rolled against the target's shields. Finally, for each die that penetrates the shields, one or more dice is rolled for damage location. While this process has worked quite well, there are some drawbacks:

1) It's a LOT of die rolling, particularly when some of the weapon traits/special equipment are factored in.

2) Rolling for hits on a D6 severely limits the number of modifiers that can be applied -- and those modifiers aren't consistent in their effect. For example, if the weapon's ACC is 5+, a +1 modifier increases the chance of scoring a hit by 50%; if the ACC is 3+, that +1 modifier only represents an increase of 25%.

3) The need to roll for damage location on each die -- and the need to track damage to individual weapon mounts -- requires special considerations, like the weapon damage chart (which incidentally means yet ANOTHER die roll).

4) Did I mention that it's a LOT of die rolling?

With the new edition, we're making a paradigm shift, from individual weapon mounts to whole weapon batteries. Each battery has a total attack dice strength, which is then stretched out into a "string", like this:

LASER CANNONS : 10 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1

When making an attack, the appropriate number of dice are rolled, and each 5 or 6 scores one point of damage on the target. That's it. To represent differing firepower strengths in different arcs, each battery is then subdivided into "banks", like this:

LASER CANNONS : [FF2][PB4][SB4] : 10 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1

Each bank has a firing arc ("FF" = forward; "PB" = port broadside; "SB" = starboard broadside) and an arc modifier (all arc modifiers are negative, but the minus signs are omitted for clarity). When determining the number of dice to roll, each -1 results in a one "column" shift to the right. Thus, the FF bank has 5 attack dice, and the PB/SB banks have 3 dice each.

Other modifiers are applicable: in particular, the target's ECM is subtracted from the arc modifier. For example, if the FF bank is used to attack a target with an ECM of 1, the number of attack dice is 4 (-2 - 1 = -3).

Why is this better?

1) It's faster. Consider this: in The Admiralty Edition, the Diamondback-class S'ssk gunship has two Serpent's Fangs firing forward. First, two dice are rolled to score hits; then, as many as 4 dice are rolled for impact; finally, up to 8 dice are rolled for damage location. Thus, in order to resolve the attack anywhere from 2 to 14 dice are rolled, in three separate rolls. If these weapons are converted to the new system, one roll of 6 dice is made, with each 5 or 6 scoring a point of damage. Simple. If the target has shields, a second roll is still needed -- on the other hand, if the target's only defenses are ECM or Armor, just the one roll will suffice.

2) It's more consistent. Each modifier has the same effect, regardless of the starting number of attack dice or when in the process it is applied. For every +2, the number of attack dice is doubled; for every -2, the number of attack dice is cut in half.

3) Damage to weapons can be handled in a more abstract fashion (i.e. as a further attack dice penalty) or in a more traditional "damage to individual banks" fashion.

And if you're worried about a loss in granularity, consider this: if the SAE version of Serpent's Fangs are fired at medium range at a target with a shield rating of 3, the overall chance of causing hull damage is as follows:

Hull Damage ... Probability
One point ... 21.7%
Two points ... 17.7%
Three points ... 7.8%
Four points ... 3.3%
Five points ... 0.9%
Six points ... 0.3%

Thus, in the process of three separate die rolls, involving as many as fourteen dice, four or more hull hits occur in less than one out of twenty-two attacks. In the new system, this same scenario would result in the roll of three attack dice (assuming an ECM of 2, which is the equivalent in protection to Shields 3). The probability of each outcome is as follows:

Hull Damage ... Probability
One point ... 44.4%
Two points ... 22.2%
Three points ... 3.7%

The curve has been flattened, but not completely. Although the very rare multiple-damage (4+ hull) attack results have been eliminated, the chances of causing at least one point of hull damage has gone up by more than a third (51.7% to 70.3%), while the average number of hull hits caused has remained the same (1.00).

In other words, by reducing the attack to a single roll of three dice -- and thus considerably hastening what has been traditionally the most complicated and time-consuming part of the game turn -- we have kept a similar range of (reasonably) possible results, increased the probability of success per attack, and maintained the overall hits-per-attack ratio.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Would it be fair to say that SFO influenced this development?  Or was this already in the works and SFO had the same influence and hit the shelves first? 

I'm really liking SFO.  How will the changes to Starmada proper bleed over, particularly for conversions?

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

graydo wrote:

Would it be fair to say that SFO influenced this development?  Or was this already in the works and SFO had the same influence and hit the shelves first? 
I'm really liking SFO.  How will the changes to Starmada proper bleed over, particularly for conversions?

I can state with a reasonable amount of certainty that the attack dice/dice column idea was in no way influenced by SFO.   smile
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

It would be fair to say that SFO had an impact on some of the design choices, but the most direct influence was Kevin's thoughts on a fleet-scale naval game (which has grown into the upcoming third edition of Grand Fleets).

The idea of modifying a starting number of attack dice via "column shifts" was all Kevin. However, he wanted a limited number of columns (no more than six, IIRC) and the drops were based on percentage points, not percentages (I think it went 100% - 80% - 60% - 45% - 30% - 15%).

My contribution was to set it up as a logarithmic scale, where the value in each column was 70.71%  that of the previous column. This meant expanding the number of columns, but allowed for more consistency. Once that happened, the rest sort of fell into place -- e.g. using modifiers to represent differing bank strengths, applying ECM as a column shift, etc.

As far as SFO goes, it's entirely possible that this edition will eliminate the need for two different games in favor of two different "scales", as with Federation Commander. We'll have to see...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

It seems interesting, but one thing I didn't like about SFO was the way weapons were represented. Many traits had been factored in the attack dice, and unfortunately, you lose most of the flavour of weapons.
And when looking at the SFU ship display, the weaponslost their trait. So, did they disapear?

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Traits still exist, and they are on the sample ship cards (Phasers are "Diffuse" [Dfs]). It appears I left them out of the heavy weapons, though.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Will there be a conversion from SAE to Starmada: The Final Edition ( wink ) like there was with SX to SAE? If so, I feel a bout of conversions coming on...:)

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

murtalianconfederacy wrote:

Will there be a conversion from SAE to Starmada: The Final Edition ( wink ) like there was with SX to SAE? If so, I feel a bout of conversions coming on...:)

I believe all of the conversion "rules" are included, so that any ship in S:AE can be converted to the new edition.

That being said...
I've found that some of the conversions come in rather messy with respect to firing arc modifiers.
For example, the close defense cannons weapon entry of the Belligerent class light cruiser is as follows:

Close Defense Cannons    [FF3][FP4][FS4][AP6]     2-4-6    14-10-7-5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0

Instead of using that conversion as is, in my opinion it'll probably be easier to convert it, but then simplify the dice columns to something more like this:

Close Defense Cannons    [FF][FP1][FS1][AP1]     2-4-6    5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0-0-0-0

There's really very little reason to start with more dice in the initial column, if the firing arc modifiers are simply going to force a three or four column shift anyway. Note that the dice total in a column or two may change by one, but hopefully you get the idea.
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

underling wrote:

I've found that some of the conversions come in rather messy with respect to firing arc modifiers.
For example, the close defense cannons weapon entry of the Belligerent class light cruiser is as follows:

This is not really a conversion issue, but a result of having multiple banks in a given battery. Because the arc modifiers are based on the percentage of the total number of weapons that can fire into a given arc, you're going to get this when putting weapons into a bunch of arcs. For example, a battery with 6 weapons firing forward, 4 weapons each firing forward-port and forward-starboard, and 2 weapons firing aft is going to look like this: [FF3][FP4][FS4][AA6].

Close Defense Cannons    [FF3][FP4][FS4][AP6]     2-4-6    14-10-7-5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0
[...]
Close Defense Cannons    [FF][FP1][FS1][AP3]     2-4-6    5-3-2-2-1-1-1-0-0-0-0-0

It is true that in basic game play, these two displays will yield the same results. However, with some of the optional rules, like combining the fire of two or more banks, the former display is preferable, even if it isn't as "clean" as some might like.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

One thing ab out ship design that was truly excellent with SAE was that when you designed a weapons, you could make it the way you see it. Whether  its stats (ROF ACC, etc.), fire acrs or special traits. In the end, you obtained the weapon as it should behave.
Here I fail to see how you determine weapon stats. That was a bit problematicv with SFO. When I made ships (from SFU), I simply converted an existing SAE ship in SFO. I would have been unable to create a ship directly for SFO.
How will it be with the new rule?

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Good explanation Dan and I do see the point of having the negatives associated for arcs - definitely required if you are going to have any sort of left shift on the attack and if you can combine arcs that overlap, this will come up all the time!

@madpax - I think what we need to see, to start envisioning how to adapt ships to the new version of starmada, are the weapon traits.

-Tim

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

If you're asking whether all of the flexibility in weapons design from SAE will remain in the new edition, the answer is probably "no". I think it should be fairly obvious the shift to a somewhat more abstract combat system will result in a certain loss of granularity in weapon design.

On the whole, however, the only real loss is in the ability to distinguish between IMP and DMG -- with weapon traits, you'll still be able to design weapons that are more accurate than others, weapons that do more damage when they hit, and so on. Considering the number of discussions we've had on this forum about "What is the difference between IMP and DMG?" I doubt this is something many people will lament...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I have no problems with making things simpler, on the contrary, although I feel that the combat system wasn't so difficult to use, especially when comparing that with the movement system.
What I mean is (and I'm talking without knowing much about the rules) is that in SFO, we lost the feeling of the weapons. I agree, IMP and DMG could have been lmerged without losing that feeling. But a high ROF weapon is very different from a high DMG weapon. A weapon with VAR DMG means usually an alien weapon, or an unstable one, or whatever, but it give a unique feeling to that weapon. Etc.
And by looking at the traits and stats, we knew if we are talking about a very big and lean gun or a ultra-high ROF auto cannon.
With SFO's simplest weapon system, we lost that feeling. I just hope this will not be the case here.

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marc,

I think its easy enough to have traits that cause multiple damage.  In fact SAE there is a trait "double damage" which I think people often overlooked because you could just as easily make a weapon with a DMG of 2. 

I'm not sure if a high ROF needs to be simulated (it could just be the assumed default), but again a trait that let you attack again with every die that hit could simulate a high ROF weapon.

Dan,

How is range going to work this time?  I see you have the 3 range bands listed - is it going to be 1 shift to the right for medium and 2 shifts for long range?

Is "stealth" going to be in the game anymore, or has that (and countermeasures I assume) going to be both be reflected by the ECM defense?

Thanks,
-Tim

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

How is range going to work this time?  I see you have the 3 range bands listed - is it going to be 1 shift to the right for medium and 2 shifts for long range?

Since we've played numerous games, I feel safe answering this one.
Close range is a one shift LEFT. If the dice are already in the initial column, then use the dice total in the next column to the right but doubled.
Long range is a one column shift right.

Marauder wrote:

Is "stealth" going to be in the game anymore, or has that (and countermeasures I assume) going to be both be reflected by the ECM defense?
Thanks,
-Tim

I'm sure Dan will include a topic for discussion on specific ship systems, but currently Stealth is included, and is simply a negative modifier to a ship firing at a ship with Stealth. So a ship targeting another ship that has Stealth (2), for example, would suffer a -2 modifier, in addition to all other modifiers.

As for countermeasures (ECM), its primary use is defensive, to reduce the offensive dice coming at a target ship.
There may be provisions for using ECM offensively to counteract ECM, but that could just be crazy talk.  wink
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

madpax wrote:

I agree, IMP and DMG could have been lmerged without losing that feeling. But a high ROF weapon is very different from a high DMG weapon. A weapon with VAR DMG means usually an alien weapon, or an unstable one, or whatever, but it give a unique feeling to that weapon. Etc.

ROF and DMG are no longer separate stats -- however, with the available traits, you will still be able to simulate high-ROF vs. high-DMG weapons.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

How is range going to work this time?  I see you have the 3 range bands listed - is it going to be 1 shift to the right for medium and 2 shifts for long range?

+1 for short range, -1 for long.

Is "stealth" going to be in the game anymore, or has that (and countermeasures I assume) going to be both be reflected by the ECM defense?

Although it has a similar effect, Stealth is actually separate from ECM, for a couple of reasons:

1) ECM will degrade with damage; Stealth will not.

2) ECM can be used in an "offensive" capacity (with an optional rule); Stealth cannot.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

Marc,

I think its easy enough to have traits that cause multiple damage.  In fact SAE there is a trait "double damage" which I think people often overlooked because you could just as easily make a weapon with a DMG of 2. 

I'm not sure if a high ROF needs to be simulated (it could just be the assumed default), but again a trait that let you attack again with every die that hit could simulate a high ROF weapon.
-Tim

Well, I'm not sure I made myself clear (english is still a foreign language for me). I didn't ask for a particular trait, I just said that I like that weapons were not just a range and a number of dice. Adding traits made the weapon unique and give you the 'right' feeling of how that weapon would have behaved if it existed. Rolling simply a number of dice doesn't tell you if this is a big gun (BOOOM!) or a high rof gun (rat-rat-rat  big_smile ). This is maybe (along with the design kit) the best facet of the game. That's mainly for the feeling the weapon gives you, not any other thing.
And, although I agree that you can have too many dice rollings (VAR ROF/IMP/DMG, ROF, IMP, DMG,  repeating, continuing damage, rolling to determine which weapon is hit), but having a minimum of rolling could reduce the fun. What is the right 'size', I can't say.

Marc

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

I see that you have the "default" attack value on the left and up to -10 worth of modifiers to the right.  I'm wondering what the typical range of modifiers might be?  It seems there will be at least the possibility of a +1 modifier (and maybe more with traits).  Does it make any sense to have this chart range from say +4 to -6 with the "default at 0" and high lighted so everyone knows not to just jump on the left column?

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

Does it make any sense to have this chart range from say +4 to -6 with the "default at 0" and high lighted so everyone knows not to just jump on the left column?

A net positive modifier is unlikely, except at close range with a single-bank battery. Net modifiers higher than +2 are impossible. The list goes out to -11 in order to accommodate starting attack dice strengths of up to 31.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

I see that you have the "default" attack value on the left and up to -10 worth of modifiers to the right.  I'm wondering what the typical range of modifiers might be?  It seems there will be at least the possibility of a +1 modifier (and maybe more with traits).  Does it make any sense to have this chart range from say +4 to -6 with the "default at 0" and high lighted so everyone knows not to just jump on the left column?

Dan's already answered this, but based on our playtest games, positive modifiers are uncommon at best.
Starting the initial column at zero makes the most sense.
That being said, you'll probably never end up at a -11 modifier either.
Common modifiers for weapons fire have been more in the 0 to -2 or -4 range.

Thought I'd add this also...
It seems to be easier starting in the left column, than starting several columns to the right, and then shifting left for close range or fire control. And again, that's because in most cases you'll not end up with a positive shift.
Kevin

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Okay sounds good then.  So each shift to the right multiplies the number of dice by 1/root 2?

-Tim

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

Marauder wrote:

Okay sounds good then.  So each shift to the right multiplies the number of dice by 1/root 2?

Yes.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

madpax wrote:

doesn't tell you if this is a big gun (BOOOM!) or a high rof gun (rat-rat-rat big_smile ).

Those are technical terms, right? smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Designer's Notes: Attack Dice

cricket wrote:
madpax wrote:

doesn't tell you if this is a big gun (BOOOM!) or a high rof gun (rat-rat-rat big_smile ).

Those are technical terms, right? smile

No, just the noises I do when I'm firing.... big_smile  :twisted:

Marc