Topic: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

I've had the rules for less than 48 hours, and I'm already tweaking...

The new rules assume a minimum size of three for hulls - but that appears to be an artifact of the rules - if you don't have at least three hull, you can't split it into three sections, for Damaged, Crippled and Destroyed. Makes sense, when you think about it.

But then, to me, it opens up an opportunity. What if we use HS 1 and 2 for different sized "fighters" - most probably of the Independent variety? A HS 1 fighter is destroyed on the first hull hit. An HS2 gets damaged on the first hull it, but skips right over crippled to destroyed on the second. That would let you have some very distinctive fighters, with different weapon systems, that can fight in a much more homogenous way with the rest of the ships in the game.

If you want to carry them, well, we'd have to figure that out. They're 60 and 147 SUs a piece, at TL0 (and let's not talk about what happens when TLs rise in the new system) so we'd probably be looking at maybe 70 and 170 SU each to be held in a hangar, maybe?

But if you add a hyperdrive, a HS 1 fighter could make a very nice little X-wing with a little more individuality than a chit with some fighter symbols on it where individual fighters don't even get noticed when they're killed, the flight just gets damaged as a whole.

Thoughts?

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

I think they would be more like gunboats than fighters, given that they'd have to follow more complex movement rules and have weapons with longer ranges than 1 hex.

-Tim

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Interesting idea. I think it would take a few more rules additions to make it work though. I just test built one, and it seems like it might be too strong. Only 11 points gets you a one hull fighter with 8 thrust and this gun:

Plasma Torpedo (Sct) 2-4-6 | 4 3 2 1 1 1 1

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Ozymandias wrote:

Interesting idea. I think it would take a few more rules additions to make it work though. I just test built one, and it seems like it might be too strong. Only 11 points gets you a one hull fighter with 8 thrust and this gun:
Plasma Torpedo (Sct) 2-4-6 | 4 3 2 1 1 1 1

What's the firing arc?

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

FR.

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

A bunch of one hull ships may not be as effective as you might think.

With an FR arc, you still have to maneuver them effectively, and one hull with little to no defense is fragile.
My guess is that any good sized ship with decent dice could blow several of them up each turn, especially if using the splitting fire optional rules.

That'd be an interesting experiment though.
Ten of the little guys against an average 110 point ship.

Kevin

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

My brother did something similar to this in AE with hull 1s, no defenses, and a G-arc shortish-range repeater.  They lost a close game against a fleet carrier and some escorts; fighters made them sad, as did marines and teleporters, but they managed to down all of the escorts and did a number on the carrier (this was back when we played to last unit standing rather than VP).

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

I think the idea of "gunboats" is a good one. Seems like we have nearly enough for an initial supplement before the actual rulebooks have shipped... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Lol, so true!

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

jwpacker wrote:

If you want to carry them, well, we'd have to figure that out. They're 60 and 147 SUs a piece, at TL0 (and let's not talk about what happens when TLs rise in the new system) so we'd probably be looking at maybe 70 and 170 SU each to be held in a hangar, maybe?

I'd probably go 50 and 100. Since these are meant to be "carried" into battle, they are likely smaller than a comparable 1- or 2-hull starship would be.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

cricket wrote:
jwpacker wrote:

If you want to carry them, well, we'd have to figure that out. They're 60 and 147 SUs a piece, at TL0 (and let's not talk about what happens when TLs rise in the new system) so we'd probably be looking at maybe 70 and 170 SU each to be held in a hangar, maybe?

I'd probably go 50 and 100. Since these are meant to be "carried" into battle, they are likely smaller than a comparable 1- or 2-hull starship would be.

Why complicate things?
Just make 'em little one or two hull, self-contained, ships.
Then all you'd need is a rules blurb on what you do with a two hull ship when it takes one point of damage.
Kevin

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

I like the idea of them being "carried" into battle.   In Star Fleet there were PFs that were towed by a mech link (a special tractor beam).  Now not saying we should model mech links, but essentially its being able to carry another ship for less space than it takes because its on the exterior of the ship.

Just be careful that gunboats are not getting the best of both worlds.  I know that one group (Warlords) implemented gunboats into Full Thrust and they ended up dumping them because they were too good. 

Oh ya, so these would also make the adaptation to SF even easier.  "interceptors" (the smaller ones) could be the 1 hull boats and the Fast patrol ships (PFs) could be the 2 hull variant.

-Tim

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Could you confirm this: There is always the possibility to design ships with hull size not necessarily a multiple of 3 (1 or 2, for example)?

Marc

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

madpax wrote:

Could you confirm this: There is always the possibility to design ships with hull size not necessarily a multiple of 3 (1 or 2, for example)?

For now, no. The minimum hull size is 3.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

madpax wrote:

Could you confirm this: There is always the possibility to design ships with hull size not necessarily a multiple of 3 (1 or 2, for example)?
Marc

It doesn't specifically state this in the construction rules, but I believe ships must be a size three or greater, so that at least one hull box would be in each of the three damage locations.
Though this may have changed from early playtesting.

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

It would be very interesting if gunboats could be grouped in to flotillas of 3 or so - just sayin'  big_smile

-Tim

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Marauder wrote:

It would be very interesting if gunboats could be grouped in to flotillas of 3 or so - just sayin'

Does someone miss the Flotilla rules? smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

A tiny bit, yes  :cry:

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Marauder wrote:

It would be very interesting if gunboats could be grouped in to flotillas of 3 or so - just sayin'  big_smile

-Tim

You could construct a ship representing a group of small ships with -1 to weapons each time a hit is taken and no repair.

A minimum of three hull would preclude attack boats or small insystem gunboats. I had intended to use fighter rules/traits for attack boats but they need to be bigger than 50SU. Bigger than a fighter flight in Nova, two hull seems to give room for options (No hyperdrive of course). (Interest in a setting that has been around for a few years)

Paul

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

cricket wrote:
jwpacker wrote:

If you want to carry them, well, we'd have to figure that out. They're 60 and 147 SUs a piece, at TL0 (and let's not talk about what happens when TLs rise in the new system) so we'd probably be looking at maybe 70 and 170 SU each to be held in a hangar, maybe?

I'd probably go 50 and 100. Since these are meant to be "carried" into battle, they are likely smaller than a comparable 1- or 2-hull starship would be.

I too would like to see gunboats, if only because those types of ships turn up A LOT in science fiction. Some genres use these types instead of the classic "starfighter". I'm thinking that simply grouping them in a flotilla-type arrangement of sections where a hit or two (depending on the 1 or 2 hull size) just kills one and the flotilla is reduced proportionately would be the way to go. Treating gunboats individually seems like it would horribly muck up games using the initiative system.
Erik

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Is there a reason you couldn't just use "tough" fighters to simulate gunboats?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

cricket wrote:

Is there a reason you couldn't just use "tough" fighters to simulate gunboats?

In my mind, yes. Reason: gunboats are usually portrayed as having starship scale weapons while fighters cannot. For an example not from SFU there are arachnid gunboats (and later Gorm) in the Starfire books that are stated as mounting "all up", warship scale antiship missiles rather than fighter missiles, as well as point defense. I'm not looking to create outlandish eggshells with sledgehammers, but convert things that exist elsewhere.
Erik

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Blacklancer99 wrote:
cricket wrote:

Is there a reason you couldn't just use "tough" fighters to simulate gunboats?

In my mind, yes. Reason: gunboats are usually portrayed as having starship scale weapons while fighters cannot. For an example not from SFU there are arachnid gunboats (and later Gorm) in the Starfire books that are stated as mounting "all up", warship scale antiship missiles rather than fighter missiles, as well as point defense. I'm not looking to create outlandish eggshells with sledgehammers, but convert things that exist elsewhere.
Erik

Or the corvettes from Homeworld.  Guess I could build 'em as hull 3s...  The escorts from BFG also spring to mind (though good luck fitting all the stuff they put on those into a hull 1 or 2).

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

cricket wrote:

Is there a reason you couldn't just use "tough" fighters to simulate gunboats?

Its the weapon range that is the problem.  Tough is good for a very sturdy fighter (or maybe one with shields) or perhaps a very agile fighter.

I realize we are throwing a lot of stuff at you, in what is essentially a finished product that just needs a few i's dotted and t's crossed.  That's fair enough - but perhaps you can take all of this stuff as inspiration for Nova's first supplement?

-Tim

Re: S:NE Alternate Fighter Idea?

Marauder wrote:
cricket wrote:

Is there a reason you couldn't just use "tough" fighters to simulate gunboats?

Its the weapon range that is the problem.  Tough is good for a very sturdy fighter (or maybe one with shields) or perhaps a very agile fighter.

I realize we are throwing a lot of stuff at you, in what is essentially a finished product that just needs a few i's dotted and t's crossed.  That's fair enough - but perhaps you can take all of this stuff as inspiration for Nova's first supplement?

-Tim

I have the feeling that Starmada since its inception has never been, and will going forward, never be a finished product. Every so often Dan just provides us with the most updated version, and promptly starts the next generation.  wink
Erik