Topic: Weapon catalogs?

Has anyone generated some sample weapon catalogs?  What I'm thinking of is how you might implement various weapons from movies, books, or other games, using the Starmada weapon system.

I'll make my own (I think I've started--where'd I put that?), but I thought a list of what's typical might be available somewhere.  I've got the Brigade designs to compare with, but don't know whether those are typical for Starmada or not.

I've subscribed to the shipyard group, in case there are some samples there by people who are designing the weapons their fleets use.

thanks,
andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Well, first off, you'll be disappointed--there is no set list of weapons.

The reason? Well, lets take an example. I might think a heavy rail cannon is an extremely powerful weapon that can cause immense damage to anything it hits, while you might think of a heavy rail cannon as being a weapon that can cause some damage, but you think that lasers cause FAR more damage. You see the problem? What I think a weapon might be is different from what you think a weapon might be.

Generally, the weapons in Brigade are fairly normal--most people design vessels of the sizes in Brigade, and their weapons are fairly standard. I tend to design far heavier weapons, just because of my luck at rolling dice--if Im able to penetrate the enemy shields I know the ship will hurt...:D

Heres a general feeling of what I feel weapons should be like. Please disregard them if you wish--as Dan says, its a free game, and you can tinker around with it as much as you want...:)

Rail Cannon: Long range, fair accuracy, Extra Hull Damage, Re-Rolls PEN.
Plasma Cannon: Shorter range, accuracy better/worse, Range-Based DMG, Extra Hull Damage
Laser: Long range, good accuracy, Re-Rolls TH

And so on and so forth.

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Yeah, I knew there isn't a set list, and I expect to design my own.  But having some examples to see norms, etc, would be a good start.  What do people think of as typical short, medium, or long range, for example?

But I don't see nearly the number of fleet designs on the web that I would expect for Full Thrust (for example).

I'm not that interested in the Brigade ships, but I can spend more time in their stats as the examples that I do have.

Thanks for the list of how you see some weapons.

andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Typically, most designers design their weapons witha fairly good range--i.e., 12-15 hexes. Lighter weapons (i.e., those for taking out fighters) have a shorter range (6-9 hexes). 18 hexes are mainly used for extremely long-ranged weapon, while 3 hexes tend to be used either for really pathetic weapons (i.e., those you might expect on a freighter) or if a designer feels that the carronade and the shockwave systems don't fit their view of a particular weapon.

However, I use 18 hexes fairly often as my long-ranged weapons, with 15 and 12 hexes being for slightly weaker weapons, or weapons which I feel are short-range (plasma cannons, for example)

Anti-fighter weapons tend to range 9 hexes for me--because I like them that way. I go for 6 hexes if I feel that I need more AF power at shorter ranges. I don't use 3 hexes much, except, possibly, as weapons on vessels with a HIGH speed

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Now on my end, I like weapons at 15 - 18 range for Long, and 9 - 12 for short...... relying on the 9 range a good deal. Since fighters have a weapon range of 1, having weapons in the 3 range isn't that much of a problem, for anti-fighter use......

I usually make my long range weapons fairly accurate with inverted range modifiers, but slightly lighter damage, and my range 9 - 12 weapons, at the top of my damage chain. In my mind.....Lasers are really accurate as they travel at the speed of light, and have good ranges, while ballistics are more damaging, but have shorter ranges due to travel times.... after a certain range (9 - 12) they become impracticle, as the target can plot the trajectory and move out of the way...... hence the shorter ranges.

Nahuris

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Here's my take on things (being a newb to Starmada as well):

BEAM WEAPONS
Gravity Beams: Long range (15-18 ) Ignores shields, Extra Hull Damage

Ion Cannons: Medium Range.  (9-12) Extra Crew Casulties

Particle Beams: Medium Range (9-12) Halves Shields, Continuous

Laser Cannons: All Ranges, Repeating

Fusion Cannons: Short Range (9 and less) Extra Hull Damage, Halves Shields.

"BALLISTIC" WEAPONS
Rail Guns: Medium to long range (15 or less), Extra Hull Damage (Think big ship sized rifles).  To hit is typically 4+ minimum given the nature of projectile weapons travel time vs. "instantaneous" light/particle based weapons.

Mass Drivers: Short Short Range (6 or less) Doubled Range Modifiers (think big ship sized shotguns) Also 4+ minimum to hit.

That's how things are done in the "universe" that myself and some other guys at the FLGS play in.  I admit, things are fairly regimented as far as what weapons are allowed what modifiers.  It started out as just an idea that was tossed out so that there was some continuity to the "universe" weapons systems and it kind of got out of control from there.   big_smile We don't even call Drones "Drones" they are Anti-ship missiles of Hunter-Killer Missiles.
We also don't use hyperdrives, our star to star transit it done via warp points so that frees up a lot of space to boost weapons abilities.

Re: Weapon catalogs?

How about typical ROF, PEN, and DMG numbers?  I see the point values go up quite a bit as you increase the numbers for later steps.  I've been looking around the Shipyard group, and some of the fleets in the Files directory use a lot of variety there.  I haven't seen as many instances of setting those over 1 so far skimming the Brigade stats in the book (I'm looking at the PDF, and maybe I haven't gotten to some that do yet).

I know--I won't really get it until I've played some.  Things are busy, and I can occasionally find time to fiddle around while online.  But setting aside space and time at home.  I've given my son warning we're going to try Starmada out soon.

andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

My fiance and I play regularly..... and most of the weapons we use are in the 1/1/1 category, with a few heavy weapons to round it out......

The big question that she and one of our other friends is asking is do weapons that do no hull damage kill crew?

She is creating a slaver race.... basically, they are dying out, and prefer to use other races to fight for them. They implant units into their slaves, to control them, ect. She prefers to take a ship intact, and uses a lot of weapons that do no hull damage.....

The other player is developing the concept of the creatures from the Aliens movies as a space fairing race......
They hunt others for food and host purposes.

Neither of them want to kill an opponents crew, just disable the ships. since the crews are the real prize. I wanted to put this out for the official answer. I don't care, but one of our players feels that since the crew is the prize, that the other players shouldn't get a discount to cost, just because it is standard for the race. Currently, he is stating that all of his crews come with cyanide injectors built into the uniform, and if the ship is being captured, the crew automatically dies....... yadda yadda

I don't see where the problem lies, as once the ships are disabled, the battle is over...... What does it matter if your crew is captured, eaten, or dies of cyanide poisoning..... the next battle sees the ship back with a new crew, so it shouldn't be an issue.

However, in the name of argument avoidance, what is the official answer?

Nahuris

Re: Weapon catalogs?

This is indirectly related to my question about ROF, PEN, and DMG:

Why are they worth different point values?  Maybe I'm just missing something.  It seems to me that 2/1/1 is going to be twice as effective as 1/1/1.  But I'd think that, on average, 1/1/2 would be the same as 2/1/1, just with distribution of results more towards the extremes (more all-or-nothing damage).

Specifically, isn't the expected number of damage rolls for 2/1/1:
2 * (chance of hit) * 1 * (chance of passing shields) * 1
and for 1/1/2:
1 * (chance of hit) * 1 * (chance of passing shields) * 2
?

So what am I missing that makes high DMG worth more than high ROF?

thanks,
andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

andyskinner wrote:

How about typical ROF, PEN, and DMG numbers?  I see the point values go up quite a bit as you increase the numbers for later steps.  I've been looking around the Shipyard group, and some of the fleets in the Files directory use a lot of variety there.  I haven't seen as many instances of setting those over 1 so far skimming the Brigade stats in the book (I'm looking at the PDF, and maybe I haven't gotten to some that do yet).

I know--I won't really get it until I've played some.  Things are busy, and I can occasionally find time to fiddle around while online.  But setting aside space and time at home.  I've given my son warning we're going to try Starmada out soon.

andy

I am pretty sure that the German / ONESS ships in Brigade play with R/P/D some.

In the work I am doing for the Stars Divided VBAM supplement I have found that a DMG of 2 on Extra Hull Damage is particularly nasty.

Re: Weapon catalogs?

There is no difference in the math.

However, there is the perception that Higher DMG is more valuable than higher ROF.  Even though that's a false perception.

Given a 1/1/3 weapon and a 3/1/1 weapon, I would take the latter as it can destroy fighters beter than the first.

But maybe I'm wrong on the math, it's certainly happened here before. (
(Most recently on the SDG Group list)

Re: Weapon catalogs?

jimbeau wrote:

Given a 1/1/3 weapon and a 3/1/1 weapon, I would take the latter as it can destroy fighters beter than the first.

Which is why the numbers are the way they are.

In actuality, high ROF is worth more than either high PEN or DMG... but you need to look at the overall value, not piece-by-piece.

i.e., in Jim's example, the 3/1/1 weapon is worth more than the 1/1/3 weapon (4 to 3).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Weapon catalogs?

That's all true, and the math speaks.  tongue

But the reason there is a perception of DMG having more value is that it isn't a "variable".

I mean, increased ROF give me more dice to roll or more chances to inflict pain and suffering wear it belongs - namely my opponent's ships.

More DMG is a known value indicating applied pain and suffering... no more die rolling.

That all said, each value (ROF/PEN/DMG) has their own weapon ability off which to key for great effect, and that is what makes weapon design so fun.

Re: Weapon catalogs?

Oh, you know, I was looking at space used, rather than points.  I was fiddling with the shipyard sheet and watching numbers, and wasn't thinking about what the numbers were.

OK, then.  2/1/1 has the advantage of taking less space than 1/1/2, right?
18 SU vs 24 SU.  3/1/1 is 24 SU, 1/1/3 is 36 SU.  [Andy goes and looks up SU costs for weapons in the rules.]  Oh, I see, you add 1 to ROF.

Does that have much of an effect on ship designs?  What's the rationale?

Thanks for pointing that out.

andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

I decided later that it still didn't make any sense to me.  smile  I'd be better off thinking through things a bit better.

Anyway, someone else on a different thread (ROF questions) got specific with it, and showed that the +1 to ROF in (ROF+1) x PEN x DMG actually increases SU by PEN and DMG, not ROF.

(ROF+1) x PEN x DMG
= ROF x PEN x DMG  +  PEN x DMG

That explains why 2/1/1 uses less space than 1/1/2.  But I thought that was the opposite of what Dan said below (that 3/1/1 is more expensive than 1/1/3).  I went to look up the points rules, and found out that the offensive rating is based on the SU, so now I'm really confused.

andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

andyskinner wrote:

That explains why 2/1/1 uses less space than 1/1/2.  But I thought that was the opposite of what Dan said below (that 3/1/1 is more expensive than 1/1/3).  I went to look up the points rules, and found out that the offensive rating is based on the SU, so now I'm really confused.

I mistyped... actually, the correct numbers are:

(3+1) x 1 x 1 = 4
(1+1) x 1 x 3 = 6

So, in fact the 1/1/3 weapon is more expensive than the 3/1/1.

Hmm.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Weapon catalogs?

cricket wrote:

I mistyped... actually, the correct numbers are:

(3+1) x 1 x 1 = 4
(1+1) x 1 x 3 = 6

So, in fact the 1/1/3 weapon is more expensive than the 3/1/1.

Hmm.

Which actually fits with what I wrote earlier.
1/1/3 has a smaller variable component compared to 3/1/1, which seems fair in considering this in its cost.

Re: Weapon catalogs?

I know I'm just being a busybody, since I haven't yet played the game and am asking about stuff pretty basic to the point and space system, but I like this kind of thing.  smile  (Note that I like it in point systems and stuff done before the game.  I like playing games to be really simple.)

Maybe the effect you were thinking of for:
(ROF+1) X PEN X DMG
Would be reasonably achieved with something more like:
ROF X PEN X DMG + ROF
?

Here are some sample numbers for this term of the equation.  S1 is current ((R+1)PD), and S2 is (RPD + R).  Done in my head, so maybe wrong.  smile

R P D S1  S2
1 1 1  2    2
1 2 1  4    3
1 2 2  8    5
2 1 1  3    3
2 1 2  6    5
2 2 2  12   8
1 1 3  6    4
3 1 1  4    6
3 1 3  12  12
3 1 2  8    9
3 2 2  16  15
1 2 3  12  7
2 2 3  18  14
3 3 3  36  30

And I'm not asking anybody to change the point and space systems for me, with all those published ships out there.  But if I'm reading right, it doesn't do what was expected.

Oh, and my son is reasonably interested in trying Starmada this weekend, especially after seeing the shipyard utility.  (It appeals to his tinkering instincts--he's 13 and related to me, so he likes stuff like that.)  I've got a hex mat made from printing out a bunch of hex sheets and taping them together (from when I was experimenting with vector navigation for fighters--I don't really care for vector movement for bigger ships).  All we need is time.

andy

Re: Weapon catalogs?

And I'm not asking anybody to change the point and space systems for me, with all those published ships out there. But if I'm reading right, it doesn't do what was expected.

Ditto here. I'm not sure its worth changing at this late point, but people just have to be aware that RoF is the most efficient, not least efficient component to increase when looking to add to a weapon's firepower.

Would be reasonably achieved with something more like:
ROF X PEN X DMG + ROF

This makes RoF slightly more expensive, but especially at the higher levels its not much of difference in the multiplier.

The real trick here is that its difficult to tweak just the RoF number without unhinging the whole mess. Weapon costs are based heavily on having a minimum expense of x2 even for the most basic 1/1/1 weapon ((1+1)*1*1)=2 times.

Given that, does andyskinner's solution work across the board? I dont know for sure yet, but it does appear better than the current formula, assuming RoF is supposed to cost more than the other components. Its certainly better than having RoF be a cheaper component to increase in that case.