I'm just using Bender for lack of anything official mate.   The name reminds me of something similar in a set of short stories I read back in the 70's...though they were called "Climbers" there since they 'climbed into sub-space'...and would cook if they stayed too long.  Since the etheric shield bends light...bender would be the logical trooper moniker...especially with the 'other' connotation that would likely sum up their actual feelings about the vessel type. *chuckles*

:twisted:
Must admit the idea of geeting roasted alive is not very appealing is it? Kinda reminds me of Warmachine Khador fractions? I think Man'o'Wars, steam power armour, which acording to the fluff is well known to steam boil the odd user.
:twisted:

Agreed.

I guess what I was thinking was a little bit of both... where you leave the ship mini where it was at the time it "submerged", and then tracked the expanding circle within which it could be hiding. When the ship attacks or "surfaces", the owning player puts it somewhere within this radius, and the process starts over.

Or is that too abstract?

I have been enjoying this thread, and think this is the sort of thing to re-pique my IS interest.

However....

I agree that making bender ability like a "cloak" would ruin it.
And the hard idea of "submersing" is just a bit much.

Neither feels right - the former cause it is to high-science for the setting and the latter cause really you want sub-equivalents rather than just translating subs to space, right?

I can't say I have a real idea/solution yet, but I am pondering it.

Linking them to diving into deep atmosphere has potential, but then they lose any real relavence for striking convoys.

I agree with Dan that the simple black paint approach can be done by any ship so it isn't "special".

Point> counter-point:

a true cloak would have to totally surround the ship. 

If completely surrounded by "solidified ether" as suggested, then the propellers have nothing to thrust against but the cloak itself from the inside...hence, they go nowhere.

rather than a cloak, I see it as more of a "parabolic" umbrella effect with the top at the front of the ship. (IMO) The after aspect does not have to be very much larger than the radial beam of the sub, so you'd almost have to be right on top of it to spot, or looking in exactly the right direction.  With light being bent around the curve of the umbrella, from the rear it might look like a bright star (which looks mighty odd when it's moving).

experiments with electricity and the state of matter were constantly being conducted as early as the mid-1800's, so the supposition that these experiments could have yielded some sort of fruit is not out of period.  Just think of it as an early successor to the Philadelphia Experiment. *chuckles*

I like the suggestion about using the position marker on the board to replace the mini.

I think the expanding circle idea might be workable, though it doesn't represent the issues in turning.  My personal preference would be blind movement plotting just to eliminate the arguement of "a ship that size can't make turns that tight and move that far". 

If the expanding circle is used, how will anyone be able to determine if the ship is in the AoE of an Etheric Charge or not?  Blind movement plotting seems to eliminates this potential arguement as well.

Both the super-heated ether wake and star-like after aspect suggested give ways to spot the sub that a true cloak would likely not have.  (the only occurrence to the contrary of this I can think of is star trek, the slight doppler shift used in STIII:tSfS with the BoP.)

The fact that the shield causes massive heat and has a limited use duration before cooking the crew or worse is a major limitation.

The fact that the shield has to be dropped for the sub to attack a target and that the sub (this hasn't been cast in stone yet) relies totally on torpedoes makes it fairly susceptible to counter attack. So that first strike better be a doozy!

While the ether may not be exactly air...it isn't multi-dimensional either, but a substance filling the void between planets and stars per Victorian SF.  Ether ships are fully capable of operating in 'space' and in the atmosphere of Earth (and other planets possibly)...so 'diving' and 'surfacing' have little relevance to actual altitude or dimension and are instead used in the context of describing the sub being visible or not.
(sorry guys not tryin to be a jerk...this is just my opinion and one of those lil things that just crackles my hackles. *wry smile*)

There really isn't another way to hide a ship in space other than camoflage of some sort, which the etheric shield really is.  Using some sort of dimensional transition does represent a non-period and inexplainable leap in potentially available human technology.  If we really want to go that route, then my recommendation is to drop subs as a human type vessel and introduce them as an alien advanced tech...like Saturn or such.

I'll admit I didn't follow your entire post, go0gleplex (and I will further admit that may be the beer (or the scotch :?:)), but I really agree with this

At minimum, without getting all complicated, a ship with limited speed and mass should be more difficult to find (disrupting the aether, giving off heat), no external lights, or whatever. That is a sub, in terms of what that term means to the tradition of the introduction of the technology/technique. An immediate leap to a "cloak equivalent" is too much for me.

In the end, I may have to agree with this:

I'm picturing the mechanics being more along the lines of wet-navy submarines; see the sub rules in Grand Fleets, rather than the cloak rules in Starmada.

But tech-wise, I cannot conceive of any way to explain the existence of such beasts without a "cloak" of some sort.

Re: the "contact marker versus removed from the board" thing, past experience in other games tells me that anything involving secret/hidden movement is probably a Bad Idea, as it adds a lot of complexity in most cases, especially on a gridless playing field.

OTOH you don't really need to replace the sub mini with a contact marker...just make some "submerged" chits to indicate which subs are under.  Maybe use anonymous contact markers at the start of a scenario, until the sub in question surfaces, which would conceal exactly what you're facing at first.  Or are subs not going to be able to loiter while "submerged" for any extended period of time?

Rich

I agree, but if we're to be using depth charge equivalents and such, there should be a way to 'track' the sub.  I just don't know any way else to do this with any accuracy other than blind plots/recording the movement.:(

True.  Probably be easier in the long run as well.

One thing I [size=150]love[/size] about Iron Stars is the little-chit-free playing surface.

I know, I know. It's the curmudgeon in me sneaking out.

I almost didn't post cause I can't think of a solution. I think the best bet is to leave them out, which probably puts me in near your sentiment, don't clutter up the setting with every possible toy... if it fits, let it fit and not force it in.

But I also admit I am a cloak-bigot. Don't like it in Star Trek, banned it in my VBAM universe...

If sub rules were easy, everyone would have them. 

The problem I see with chit spawning (that sounds so bad said fast :oops: ) is that each chit creates an aiming point for AoE type weapons; in addition to really cluttering up the board and slowing play down as each chit would need to be moved.  That's just too much chit to deal with...(sorry...I HAD to say it.  :roll: :twisted:   )

Hmmm....wonder if we should just take a different track on the whole ether charge thing.  Use Dan's expanding circle suggestion, explaining the turning issue as due to the slower speed of the sub tighter turns are possible than faster ether vessels.

The ether charges are set up similar to rockets in terms of space.  So 1 SU buys 3 ether charges (random number for discussion's sake). 

The charges are launched in the direction of the contact marker with 'jiggle-switches' (think the motion detectors used in "The Rock") that arm a safe distance away from the firing ship and are triggered by ether turbulence.  In this case, the turbulence created around the bender.  These charges are unguided and can affect a large area.

The ether charge capacitor (no reason to change this aspect of the fluff ) discharges over an area of effect.  A d8 is rolled to hit (again, random die size for discussion's sake).  Any successful hit causes 1 damage hit rolled with a d12 on the bender's damage track (just like a torp) and the "heat scale" is increased by +1.  (Assuming each bender has a heat limit before the crew is well done)

The base to hit a sub isn't affected by range from the attacking ship, but by how many turns the circle of engagement has had to expand.  Each turn is a 1 point penalty against success. 

Detection of the bender would be a d10 roll with a 1 meaning the ship's lookout has spotted its wake.  FACs actively patrolling for benders are successful in spotting the wake on a result of 2 or 1.
If the ship is equipped with specialized spotting gear, then a d6 is rolled instead with a 1 still required for successfully spotting the bender's ether wake.