Topic: Question regarding damage

Hi

I may be missing something here but does the damage system in SX take into account the size of the ship. An example probably best describes what I mean.

The hit location system in SX is lovely and elegant and appears to be based on how much of a ship a system takes up. So the larger the percentage of the ship that the engines occupy, the more times it appears on the damage table i.e. it is more likely to get hit.  Now if say a laser hits a large ship that has the same percentage of its space allocated to engines as a smaller ship then the chances of it hitting the engines is the same but should the damage effects be the same? i.e. one point of engine damage is as easy to inflict on a battleship as it is on a frigate.

Assuming percentages for both ships is the same, there is a lot more metal in a battleships drives than a frigates so should they not take more damage before being affected? Hull points represent the size difference but the hit boxes for crives/shields/special equipment are independent of the actual space they occupy.

If I have misunderstood the design rules feel free to hurl abuse as required!  :oops:

Re: Question regarding damage

Starhound wrote:

Assuming percentages for both ships is the same, there is a lot more metal in a battleships drives than a frigates so should they not take more damage before being affected? Hull points represent the size difference but the hit boxes for crives/shields/special equipment are independent of the actual space they occupy.

The chance of a particular type of damage being inflicted is not based upon the space, per se, but it is connected to it tangentially.

Essentially, the idea is that a ship, on average, should have lost two-thirds of its systems at the time it blows up. Thus, if a ship has 12 MPs and 6 hull points, it should lose 8 MPs by the same time it loses 6 hull points... thus, the ratio of engine hits to hull hits should be 8:6. As there are three hull hits on the track, there should be 4 engine hits. Looking at the formula in A.3.1, MPs x 2 / Hull, you get a result of 12 x 2 / 6 = 4. (Note that fractions are rounded up because otherwise you might have a situation in which a ship was "immune" to a particular type of damage.)

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Question regarding damage

Like, for example, having just one example of a Super-Heavy Ion Blaster, with these stats:

18 3+ 3/3/3 Ignores Shields

That would be a problem if you couldn't take it down...:D

Re: Question regarding damage

Hi Daniel

I've got a better understanding of the damage allocation process now and done a few 'what if' scenarios and am happy now. Seems almost too simple to work but it does! I like it.

Re: Question regarding damage

Starhound wrote:

Hi Daniel

I've got a better understanding of the damage allocation process now and done a few 'what if' scenarios and am happy now. Seems almost too simple to work but it does! I like it.

Hmm, maybe the line Seems almost too simple to work but it does! I like it. should be taken as a slogan by MJ12. It seems to apply to everything they do.  smile

Re: Question regarding damage

We aim to please!

I think the new slogan should be

"If it aint' got a square root, it ain't fun!"

Re: Question regarding damage

I think the GW approach of make it complicated, don't base it on any mathematics and add a special rule whenever possible is the way to go! Not to mention ignoring customer comments and refusing to answer/accomodate suggestions and questions.

I'm just off to get my medication now  lol

Re: Question regarding damage

Oh, while you're there, can you get mine too? Best if you take a fork-lift to get it though...:D

Re: Question regarding damage

I attempted to play battlefleet gothic once......

I think I rather enjoyed my double root-canal much more than that game..... we had several players on each side... and spent the entire game (which only made it to turn 2 after 3 hours) arguing nuances of special rules.... and the effect of a chaos mutation on a ship.........

The old Starfleet Battles ran smoother......

I think that I could definitely enjoy a lot more simple in my games........ that and the site of my opponents ships turning into orange blots via my drones......LOL

John

Re: Question regarding damage

General point to note here:
GW never respond to questions/suggestions.

I play Arnies of Arcana for fantasy battles, FT and now SX for Sci Fi.

FT, SX and AoA are small fry in comparision to WHFB but in each case the designers have paid more attention to what the rules were trying to achieve and answeresd all questions (intelligently) that have been posted to them.

It is the actions of Thane Morgan, Jon Tuffley and now Daniel Kast that really push the wargame hobby forward. Hats off to you chaps. F***ing excellent game systems, even better attitudes! RESPECT!!!

Re: Question regarding damage

It is the actions of Thane Morgan, Jon Tuffley and now Daniel Kast that really push the wargame hobby forward.

I agree; these systems are the best of the best, although Full Thrust is a bit dated now, but Jon Tuffley has an excellent range of Starships second to none sorry Brigade but it's true.  Jon also has the excellent Stargurnt II probably the most realistic  Platoon/Company level combat system out there.

So when are we going to see another release for Starmada?
Can Starmada the best get better?

....................Doug

Re: Question regarding damage

Well, I think it would be a good idea, especially if we add equipment and weapon choices in order to take advantage of VBAM abilities. For instance, I did like the idea of putting a mass driver into the mix...:D

Re: Question regarding damage

Inari7 wrote:

So when are we going to see another release for Starmada?
Can Starmada the best get better?

Soon now... we hope.

What would you like to see for SX?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Question regarding damage

[size=200]MASS DRIVERS[/size]

Does that answer your question? tongue

Re: Question regarding damage

What does "Mass Drivers" mean, exactly?  You can call a weapon anything you want...I assume there's something specific you're looking for?

Re: Question regarding damage

cricket wrote:

What would you like to see for SX?

A new sourcebook similar to the brigade one with new factions, ship writeups, histories and stats.

More background on the governemnts in the vanilla Starmada book. Such as the Imperial Starmada the Donegal? and the aliens that start with a K (I'm at work and do not have the books with me :? ).

Re: Question regarding damage

I'd like to see more fighter disads. It's tough making campaign flavor when all you can go from the base fighters is "up", so to say.

I like the stuff in Brigade. Given a number of similarities in fleet costs, it's practically providing ready-made engagements, which are great for introducing folks to the game.

Re: Question regarding damage

-Combat and design rules for orbital stations and ground batteries would be fine.

-simple rules to conduct ground combat with the troops/marines invading a ground installation. Should be similar and easy like the boarding rules maybe. (eg. troops are calculated in "steps" to 25 etc.)

-rules for ship combat in the athmosphere of a planet. Different types of athmospheres would be nice to simulate the athmospheric conditions of exotic planets.

-rules for invasion landings of assault landers or drop troops and the planetary defence fire.

-much greater hulls than 20. (maybe 200 or even bigger for titanic ships like the star wars death star) Or maybe a hull size formula to construct such monster ships.

-Some premade scenarios with balanced forces also.

-more different scenario types

-Also a way to design ships without shields or screens at all. (just different thickness of armor and the material it is made of)  I know the game comes with an armor special equiment, but I would prefer a deeper system for armor. Eg. for game universes like the traveller universe.

-Gunship rules, sub light ships which are greater than fighters but smaller than hull size 1 ships. (maybe operating in squadrons of 2 or 3)

-new area weapons

What I dont need is:
-background material for a universe. (while basically interesting, this should be in a seperate source book, like the Boltian book for example)

Re: Question regarding damage

Other than picking up some of the errata and FAQ stuff...I'm pretty satisfied with the game as is.  I'd hate to see the game become so munchkinized it ends up following trends like CBT, FT, and WH40K/ WHFB. :?

Mass Drivers- simply a weapon system name.  If something more is desired, then maybe use it as an enhancement option for greater DMG with slower ROF.

Area of Effect could be treated the same way...as an enhancement if really needed.  Each hex represents a pretty large area of space...so a common misperception may be that the big booms aren't big.  So if a hex represents 1000 miles (figuratively speaking)...it would seem that from a scale standpoint AoE is pretty moot.

Armor system for use with Traveller- simply rename shields as Armor I would think.

Larger ships are possible following the formula provided. The math isn't that bad. smile  Stations are just big ships without drive systems really and isn't there a 10% SU bonus for lack of hyperdrive?


I do think some planetary interface rules would be useful, but aren't necessarily required.  Planetary defense emplacements would be interesting...livening up orbiting around a not-so-friendly planet.  :wink:

my two-cents at any rate.

Re: Question regarding damage

go0gleplex wrote:

Other than picking up some of the errata and FAQ stuff...I'm pretty satisfied with the game as is.  I'd hate to see the game become so munchkinized it ends up following trends like CBT, FT, and WH40K/ WHFB. :?

And, to a lesser extent, Mekton Zeta. As much as some CBTers loathe Games Workshop games, I can say, as a long-time player of CBT... You're absolutely right.

Mass Drivers- simply a weapon system name. If something more is desired, then maybe use it as an enhancement option for greater DMG with slower ROF.

It also depends if we're talking about a ship weapon system or the WMD version, like in Babylon 5.

Area of Effect could be treated the same way...as an enhancement if really needed.  Each hex represents a pretty large area of space...so a common misperception may be that the big booms aren't big.  So if a hex represents 1000 miles (figuratively speaking)...it would seem that from a scale standpoint AoE is pretty moot.

And it also largely depends on what kind of AoE you're looking for. Anime Spinal Mounts produce the "classic" effect, after all.

Armor system for use with Traveller- simply rename shields as Armor I would think.

Of course, one would have to reconcile armor plating with that, but I don't think it would be too difficult.

Larger ships are possible following the formula provided. The math isn't that bad. smile  Stations are just big ships without drive systems really and isn't there a 10% SU bonus for lack of hyperdrive?

That's how it's handled in VBAM: Starmada, actually. There's also a way to do >20 ships on the SXCA.

I do think some planetary interface rules would be useful, but aren't necessarily required.  Planetary defense emplacements would be interesting...livening up orbiting around a not-so-friendly planet.

There are actually some neat rules for that in AT2. A Starmada conversion probably wouldn't be too difficult.

my two-cents at any rate.

Re: Question regarding damage

go0gleplex wrote:

Other than picking up some of the errata and FAQ stuff...I'm pretty satisfied with the game as is.  I'd hate to see the game become so munchkinized it ends up following trends like CBT, FT, and WH40K/ WHFB. :?

I have not said that I am not satisfied with the game. En contraire. The question of Dan was what could be included in a new starmada book. And its clear that you cannot just repeat the existing material, or it will be difficult to sell such a book to a customer, or? (At least I would not be interested in buying a book which has just a new layout without new stuff in it)

Also I see no reason why my or others suggestions should "munchkinize" starmada? This is beyond me.


go0gleplex wrote:

Area of Effect could be treated the same way...as an enhancement if really needed.  Each hex represents a pretty large area of space...so a common misperception may be that the big booms aren't big.  So if a hex represents 1000 miles (figuratively speaking)...it would seem that from a scale standpoint AoE is pretty moot.

There is no scale AFAIK, so its up to the player how many miles a hex will have. If starmada is a generic game which tries to simulate different universes its not that far away to present rules for more area weapons or other exotic weaponry. (eg. MOO2 streaming weapons or black hole weapons) I would even opt for a free scaleable area model with different shapes - why not having a bomb which affects a 3 hex line of damage instead of the usual 7 hexes? - and different damage types

go0gleplex wrote:

Armor system for use with Traveller- simply rename shields as Armor I would think.

Of course I could do my own rules and probably I will if there is no official version. But why should I tinker around if Dan who is much more adept in this subject, presents an armor subsystem in a future edition?

go0gleplex wrote:

Larger ships are possible following the formula provided. The math isn't that bad. smile  Stations are just big ships without drive systems really and isn't there a 10% SU bonus for lack of hyperdrive?

Well, see above. I could do it by myself, but why should I? As long as it is not "official" it is only an ad-hoc solution. If we invent the rules by ourselves, they will not be as good as Dan can do it.

Nonetheless thanks for your tipps. smile

Re: Question regarding damage

But if you don't tinker then we risk travelling down the dark side wherein Darth Dan delivers the ultimate and single ruleset.

Personally, I liked Noel's implementation of AoE weapons.

I.e. target a hex, if you hit you hit, if you miss, you "drift" into one of the adjacent hexe and the AoE goes off.  You then roll to hit the "target" and the outlying hexes, it's almost but not quite a may re-roll to hit and AoE all at once.

Re: Question regarding damage

Okay...first off...munchkinizing is simply referring to the frequent rules revisions resulting in longer ranges, better damage, faster movement, better defenses (usually against the previous improvements)...to a point that the game becomes more a deus ex machina than any sort of fun...or it becomes an arguement about what is more broken...(such as fighters or PDF)....a path which would be really unfortunate for Starmada to follow.

The term was not used in the context of blowing any ideas presented off...


The larger hull formula and hyperdrive aren't ad hoc rules...but inclusive in the rules of Starmada X now.  I've designed several larger than Hull 20 ships quite easily. So I don't know what the issue is there.

Re: Question regarding damage

hundvig wrote:

What does "Mass Drivers" mean, exactly?  You can call a weapon anything you want...I assume there's something specific you're looking for?

A Mass Driver that allows the Mass Driver ability in VBAM to be added to a vessel. So when designing a ship with the VBAM:SX spreadsheet, if you add a Mass Driver piece of equipment, it comes up as Mass Driver (1).

Tyrel and I did have a conversation about it, actually, and heres what I remember:

A 500 SU piece of equipment that is unaffected by TL (thus you have to put it on very heavy warships or have simple siege vessels with little offensive weaponry at all). In VBAM terms it adds the Mass Driver ability onto the warship.

In Starmada terms, in order to fire a mass driver the ship must be stationary. When a mass driver is fired, it launches a hull 10 'vessel' (actually an asteroid) which, for purposes of movement, has two MPs and, for purposes of shooting it down, has Armour Plating and a shield rating of 4 (KEB would be 4/4/4). It would be targetted like any other vessel, and destroyed like any other (10 hull hits) but there would be no engine, shield, equipment or weapon criticals (IOW, each hit results in a hull hit).

If it isn't destroyed, and in a turn it ends up inside a hex with a station or a planet, it rams the target (automatically winning the collision roll). Ships will always win a collision roll, however. Then roll for ramming damage as normal.

A mass driver would increase the ORat of a ship the same for a hull 10 spinal mount.

Example: A Centauri Primus with a mass driver lobs a rock at a JaStat warbase. The distance is ten hexes, so that means that the Narns have five turns to stop it hitting.

In the fourth turn, just two hexes shy of the base, a G'Quan is in the same hex. The collision roll is automatically won by the G'Quan, so it can choose not to be attacked by the asteroid. But the captain decides to collide with the asteroid in order to try and stop it from hitting the base

It needs some polishing, of course...

Discuss smile

Re: Question regarding damage

Sounds like a spinal mount to me