• Registered: 2006-05-03
  • Posts: 44

Topic: Designing Ships without shields?

I've always been interested in settings were one side has shields and the other doesn't (Halo comes to mind), and I see in the AE rules a roll of 4 would inflict no damage on a shield-less ship.  So, do people think it's worthwhile to design a ship that ignores 1/6 of the hits on it, even though high IMP weapons would be very good against it?  Combined with Armor Plating I think such a ship might be able to survive, depending on the IMP of the typical weapons it was expected to face.

Anyway, no idea if this would actually work at all, just throwing it out there.

-Will

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

wminsing wrote:

I've always been interested in settings were one side has shields and the other doesn't (Halo comes to mind), and I see in the AE rules a roll of 4 would inflict no damage on a shield-less ship.  So, do people think it's worthwhile to design a ship that ignores 1/6 of the hits on it, even though high IMP weapons would be very good against it?

An interesting idea, and one that had not occurred to me when revising the damage roll. However, it would be a misnomer to assume that "ignoring" 1 in 6 damage rolls would really help much. Either way, the ship will (on average) go "boom!" after a number of damage rolls equal to twice its hull size.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-05-03
  • Posts: 44

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

That is what I feared.  Even if you have a very slight edge in taking damage, the fact will be that you'll have more damage rolls thrown against you to begin with, so you aren't getting ahead.  Oh well.

One request I'd have for a future Starmada 'options' book would be to include a rules system that allows a distinction between unshielded and shielded ships that allows unshielded vessels to be somewhat viable.

-Will

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

I wouldn't say that unshielded ships are not viable -- they are less resilient, to be sure, but they are also cheaper. You get what you pay for...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-05-03
  • Posts: 44

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

True, I might have to experiment with a couple of designs to see if I can build a shield-less fleet and see how it fairs against a shielded fleet.

-Will

  • Registered: 2005-06-15
  • Posts: 94

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

There are other sorts of defense, too.  I think Dan has been careful to get a good value for each defense, so I'd feel free to experiment.

So you could have an unshielded fleet with armor plating and/or countermeasures and/or increasing the hull size by 1 to give another hull point?

I'm finding that I'm not giving high shield values to my ships, just because they start taking up so much space past 3.

Of course, another way to look at it is that Shields represents shields on one fleet, and armor plates on the other.  It is just whatever goes up against the Impact value.  But it is nice to have fleets that you want to be different actually have different mechanics, so I think you've got some good things to try out.

andy

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

Thing of it is... you have to be willling to sacrifice unshielded ships to the wolves so to speak.

But you get more "hit" for your buck also.

Designs that I think would fare well as unshielded are ones with very long range weapons and, of course, some fighters.

  • Registered: 2006-05-03
  • Posts: 44

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

So you could have an unshielded fleet with armor plating and/or countermeasures and/or increasing the hull size by 1 to give another hull point?

Yea, Armored Plating would be a must for a shield-less ship, I think.  Counter Measures would be a good idea too.

Designs that I think would fare well as unshielded are ones with very long range weapons and, of course, some fighters.

Actually, long range weapons and loads of fighters/seeker is pretty much what I had in mind as well.  For example, if I trying to model the UNSC ships in Halo the ship's primary battery would be long range, high damage, G-arc MAC cannons.  The 'secondary battery' would be Archer Missile Pods (in the form of Seekers), with small defense guns at the tertiary battery.  Ships would also tend to be large, so there's the ability to soak some damage. 

Still somewhat dependent on how high the IMP value of the enemy's guns are, but against an enemy with low/moderate IMP weapons I think this might be doable....

-Will

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

The thing about Starmada is... There's always something out there that exploits your weaknesses.

I am inclined towards campaigning now, however,I don't usually have the attention span for a truly protracted campaign.

I found the Stars Divided playtesting campaign (Wherein I played a Fleet-Commander) a whole lotta fun because I felt like I was interacting with a larger Plane without needing to get involved in the week-to-week muckjy details.

What I found best was the fact that I had been given "missions" and I was supposed to try to carry them out.

At one point, I was forced to go off-mission and that caused a bit of a ripple effect in the campaign.

Anyway, it was fun.  So sometimes it's not about who can build the biggest ship or the most bestest cheesy combo, it's about having fun.  Which is the way wargaming is supposed to be. big_smile

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 330

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

Pointwise, unshielded ships should be 'equal' to their shielded brethren (In Dan's math, we trust).  You are right that the issue reamins that if you face a foe with high IMP weapons, you might be in for a rough battle.

Consider a size 10 ship with engines of 5 and level 3 shields can hold 20 RNG 9, ROF 3, 4+, 1 IMP, 1 DMG guns (all 2 arcs) for a cost of 229 CR

a size 10 ship with engines of 5, but no shields can hold 29 RNG 9, ROF 3, 4+, 1 IMP, 1 DMG guns (all 2 arcs) for a cost of 195 CR

Are the two ships comparable, that's for the math gurus on this forum to determine...

-Bren

  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 811

Re: Designing Ships without shields?

You can't really compare ships that use the same type of weaponry (and you're not, actually) because tactically, you won't use ships without shields the same.

(176) No-Shields
Hull: 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1

Weapons:
1:5X 2:5X 3:5X 4:4X 5:4X 6:4X

X: Long Range Hitter 6/12/18, 1/4+/1/1
45 weapons with 2 arcs each

(171) Has-Shields
Hull: 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 4 4 3 3 2 2 1
Shields: 4 4 3 3 2 2 1
Weapons:
1:5X 2:4X 3:4X 4:4X 5:4X 6:4X

X: Laser 4/8/12, 1/4+/1/1
29 weapons with 2 arcs each

Or if you want the weapons the same:

(183) Has-Shields
Hull: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
Shields: 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1
Weapons:
1:5X 2:5X 3:5X 4:4X 5:4X 6:4X

X: Long Range Hitter 6/12/18, 1/4+/1/1
35 weapons with 2 arcs each

One last ship, everything the same, except trade shields 3 for some weapons (and reduce hull so the points work out)

(173) No-Shields
Hull: 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 5 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1 1
Shields: 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1 1

Weapons:
1:3X 2:3X 3:3X 4:3X 5:2X 6:2X

X: Long Range Hitter 6/12/18, 1/4+/1/1
24 weapons with 2 arcs each

As with everything, you make some trades and some concessions when you do one thing or another.