Topic: Star shells

I have a campaign I'm trying to draw up for IS that fits between The Merchant War and the next supplement -- dated 1911 to early 1912.  It's a relatively minor conflict that will involve my vision of  slightly upgraded Japanese and Chinese fleets. Obviously, it's an unofficial kinda thing.  The idea is the Japanese are alarmed by the Empress exile's constant demands regarding the the territories Tokyo is holding "in trust," and by the fact that Taiwan has gained access to the KF cluster (the Merchant War has opened the doors to that resource), allowing it modernize its small ether fleet.  I know Wasserstahl has military applications that go beyond the IS rulebook (land and sea based war machines).  That's why the stuff's in such high demand and ether fleets now have an actual impact on political developments down on Earth.

One piece of tech I was working on might supplement the standard searchlight rule, and centers on the idea of a ship using its secondary mounts to fire star shells/flares/whatever to illuminate surrounding space.

kaika -- Japanese word for bloom?

Where the searchlight rules give you a number of beams based on hull size, these would give you a number of rolls dependent on how many secondary mounts your ship possesses.  Say your ship has 8 Secondaries.  You might get four rolls, regardless of the firing arc.  Or you might get the normal arc limitations.  I dunno.

The player deciding to employ this kind of kit would roll to-hit just as if he were targeting a ship.  He would pick a spot on a map, determine range and treat it as if it has an armor value of "0."  If he "hits" he has illuminated a point on the map 3" in diameter (use a small mine template).  If he misses, he rolls a D12 die to determine direction of scatter, and moves his template a certain distance (say 2" for every point by which he missed). 

The downside is that 1.) secondaries used for this purpose cannot be used to attack opposing ships in the same turn and 2.) any ship in that affected radius is illuminated, so there's a chance that you will highlight one of your own vessels to the opposition. 

Neither primaries or light guns can be used to illuminate the board.  But this technique CAN be used to supplement your onboard searchlights.

Example: A Senjo class cruiser wants to target the Tai Zhou,  which is 14" away.  That requires some hefty rolls by its searchlights, and the beams aren't up to the job.  The Japanese player has one more chance.  He has four secondary mounts, so he can get two attempts at using his star shells.  He needs to roll a 5+ (base target # of 3 plus 2 for range), and lands one shot while rolling a "2" on the other.  One shell is wildly off target. 


Stupid?

Re: Star shells

Personally I think it's brilliant.  Only problem I see is that I didn't think of it first.

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

One piece of tech I was working on might supplement the standard searchlight rule, and centers on the idea of a ship using its secondary mounts to fire star shells/flares/whatever to illuminate surrounding space.

I love the concept, but I wonder if it couldn't be implemented differently...

Basically, allow your secondaries to make an "attack" against a single target, as per the usual rules. For this attack, armour is ignored, but size/momentum mods apply.

If any hits are scored, the target is illuminated during the -following- turn. This can be done by placing a black "illuminated" marker next to the target. In the end phase, flip the marker to its white side, and remove any markers already on their white side.

If it seems too easy to illuminate a target, we can up the minimum number of hits...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

But are they illuminating a ship, or a location?

I ask that, and I now I am trying to picture using the secondaries (or even a new special kit - though I like using the guns they should be limited in number) to place "flare" markers on the table (that could die down like explosions in starmada). I like the random drift nature of missed shots, too.

Then if a ship were in the circle they are illuminated, but then can move out of the circle. Any ships that move in next turn are illuminated (if the flare is still active).

Drop them down on a logical approach and turn the search lights on to the gaps...

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

The downside is that 1.) secondaries used for this purpose cannot be used to attack opposing ships in the same turn and 2.) any ship in that affected radius is illuminated, so there's a chance that you will highlight one of your own vessels to the opposition. 

Neither primaries or light guns can be used to illuminate the board.  But this technique CAN be used to supplement your onboard searchlights.

1 - I'd think that ANY gunfire would briefly illuminate your ship.

2 - I'd say that a medium gun would illuminate half as much as the star shells from a Primary...

How (or whether) to do this, I leave to the game mechanics experts...

I have some Soviets to model....:-)

Re: Star shells

I'd like to keep it as illuminating an area rather than a specific hull.

Flares and illumination rounds are speculative kit met to light up an area of water (or in this case, space).  Best example I can think of them being used -- in the books I've read -- are WW2 night battles between US and Japanese ships off Guadalcanal and British and Italian ships fighting in the Med.

My mechanics may be a bit clunky.  I would really go for Taltos's suggestion for the templates fading away, except I think Dan's said the average IS turn is supposed to be 10+ minutes.  Like Grand Fleets, we're abstracting things to a large degree, where you make 6-8 to-hit rolls with your Primary Guns, but those represent the 6-8 shells that actually had a chance of hitting.  There's actually been a good bit more shooting than that. 

Matt -- who's lost half his frigging IS notes in one fell swoop  :shock:

Re: Star shells

Bumping the thread 'cause I wanna keep the topic alive smile

I've been thinking that maybe my proposed kit is adding too many rolls to the average turn.  I would want to keep this as "area effect" technology.  How's about:

A ship launches flares/star shells out of its secondaries.  The number of rounds that can be fired is still limited by the firing arc (so a ship can with 8 secondaries can fire four star shells out of its P or S arc).

Before doing anything, you announce how many secondaries will be firing flares/star shells.

You then nominate an enemy ship and make a single to-hit roll as mentioned above: 1/2 die + range.  If you hit, you've illuminated the ship and anything else that falls under your template.

The template's size is equal to the number of secondaries you've committed. 

1-2 secondaries = 2" template
3-4 secondaries = 3" template
5-6 secondaries = 4" templates
7-8 secondaries = 5" template

If you miss, you roll D12 for scatter direction and the distance the shell went off target is 1" for every point by which you missed your roll.

The template stays in place until the conclusion of the End Phase.  I don't think we could include fading rules because the average turn is 10+ minutes and the flares won't be burning longer than that, anyway. 

This approach lets the whole process be limited to one roll, two max.  And it makes sense to me because a ship that's trying to find the enemy isn't going to be firing a dozen flares in a dozen different directions.  It's going to be concentrating ALL of its attention on a specific area.

Example: A Makuhari is firing during the "Active" Combat Phase.  It wants to target that Chinese cruiser that's 14" away. The player announces he's going to fire some flares/star shells/whatever you wanna call 'em.

The Makuhari has 8 secondaries, which means it can commit up to four guns to illumination and this is what it does.  The Japanese player places a 3" (small mine template) over the Chinese ship, and rolls a single die.  He needs a 3+2 for range or a 5+ to hit, and gets 3.  He misses by 2", so now he has to roll for scatter.  Any ship touched by the template is considered to be "illuminated" for the rest of the Turn, so if any friendly ships are highlighted this way, they can be targeted by the Chinese during their Reactive Phase without having to do anything.  In the meantime, those secondaries cannot be used to attack anyone this turn.

Re: Star shells

Could work...

Have to balance it with searchlights, and not replace them.
Limited duration, risk of random placement...
Securing the range would be the last factor, right?

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

This approach lets the whole process be limited to one roll, two max.  And it makes sense to me because a ship that's trying to find the enemy isn't going to be firing a dozen flares in a dozen different directions.  It's going to be concentrating ALL of its attention on a specific area.

This is a much better approach, IMHO.

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

This is a much better approach, IMHO.

smile

I think it's taking shape. 

It has a time duration that fits within the IS game turn -- meaning it affects things on the board for 10 minutes.

It has a range limit in that a ship with D6 secondaries is going to have a hard time successfully illuminating a point on the board 15" away (you'd need to roll a "6" to get it right where you want).

It lets ships compensate for that limit by saturating the area with star shells -- meaning that while it's hard to be pinpoint at 15", you can invest all of your available secondaries into this tactic and hope the enlarged template will still do the job.

It supplements the searchlights instead of replacing them.

It's relatively quick (just 1 or 2 rolls per acting ship).

And it ain't a game breaker.  While this can help light up the board, you're losing firepower, and running the risk of illuminating friendly hulls as well as hostiles.

I'll wait to hear if anyone's got probs with it, and if there aren't any by 5 p.m., I'll drop a PDf for folks wanting to test it out.

Matt

Re: Star shells

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mj12games@yahoogroups.com

> This is a much better approach, IMHO.
> ==========
>
> Well, I'll disagree.
> Scatter is bad, and having multiple size templates is bad.
> 'Nuff said.

Perhaps... but I was saying it was better than the previous proposal. I still think targeting a specific ship is the best method.

But I don't want to stifle innovation... smile

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

Bad, schmad.  It's a house rule for my little group, and ya don't gotta use it.

Here yer idea's "bad" followed by nuthing more than "nuff said" kills the ole' enthusiasm.

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

Bad, schmad.  It's a house rule for my little group, and ya don't gotta use it.

True enough... but I think you're on a good track. Keep it up...

I do agree that the roll for scatter might be a bit much, since nothing else in IS scatters. Mayhap it would be a better idea, and a compromise between area effect and targeting a specific ship, to do this:

Fire your secondaries at a specific target (you gotta have some reference point at which to aim, even if it's a vague shadow in the night). Effect is centered on this target, but the radius of effect is based on the number of "hits":

1 = 1"
2-3 = 2"
4-6  = 3"
7-10 = 4"
11+ = 5"

Thus, if you score a single hit, you've effectively illuminated the target and not much else. However, if you manage to get more than 10 hits (from a single battery, this would be highly unlikely) then an area 10" in diameter is lit up like a Christmas tree... this includes friendlies as well, so there's your difference between star shells and searchlights.

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

That is a bit more elegant, and balances nicely - both with the existing mechanics and giving it a nice flavor all its own.

Also keeps in that tactical decision of how many guns to use on flares vs. damaging fire.

Re: Star shells

That works fine for me.  Makes it a lot less to remember, as well -- so target modifiers are range, and maybe speed?  We're suggesting that the acting ship is firing at a point in space because its crew saw/detected something to arise suspicion.  But if that fleeting shadow was hauling tail, it will add to the difficulty of illuminating it.

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

That works fine for me.  Makes it a lot less to remember, as well -- so target modifiers are range, and maybe speed?  We're suggesting that the acting ship is firing at a point in space because its crew saw/detected something to arise suspicion.  But if that fleeting shadow was hauling tail, it will add to the difficulty of illuminating it.

Correct on all counts, except that the modifiers should be range plus either target size or speed, depending upon which set of mods you are using for normal gunfire.

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

Attached is Dan's proposed approach in PDF format (all zipped up).  Und ja, it's a good bit more streamlined than my original ideers.  I should stay at what I'm best at.....and game mechanics ain't it  big_smile

Re: Star shells

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mj12games@yahoogroups.com

> Correct on all counts, except that the modifiers should be
> either target size or speed, depending upon which set of mods
> you are using for normal gunfire.
> ==========
>
> Hold on...
> You're not firing at a point in space, you're firing at a
> specific ship.
> Correct?

Correct -- but IS only uses a set of modifiers for size; unless you use the optional mods for speed, which replace those for size.

smile

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

Attached is Dan's proposed approach in PDF format (all zipped up).  Und ja, it's a good bit more streamlined than my original ideers.  I should stay at what I'm best at.....and game mechanics ain't it  big_smile

Talkin' with Kevin, and I think we've come up with something better...

During the End Phase, any ship which did not fire its secondaries during the preceding Combat Phase may use them to fire star shells at a point on the table. Normal firing arc restrictions apply.

An attack is then made against that point, using normal range modifiers.

The number of "hits" scored indicates the radius of the resulting area of illumination:

1 hit = 1"
2-3 hits = 2"
4-6 hits = 3"
7-10 hits = 4"
11+ hits = 5"

Place an appropriate marker at the targeted spot.

During the following Combat Phase, any ship within the appropriate distance of this marker has been illuminated. Markers are removed at the beginning of the next End Phase.

This does a couple things:

1) It places shar shells in the same portion of the game turn as searchlights.

2) It takes away the requirement of targeting a specific ship.

3) Although speed/size mods do not apply, it still gives small ships an advantage, in that they can try to move away from illuminated areas before they can be attacked.

Dan

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

cricket wrote:

During the End Phase, any ship which did not fire its secondaries

Just out of curiousity, was there a reason we defaulted to secondaries instead of light guns? What weapons historically fired star shells?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

I keep reading about ships (modern and WW2 era) using 5" guns for illumination.  I can't find anything about WWI.  But in my mind, 5" guns would be secondary mounts on an IS ship.

Light guns are weapons I equate to anything smaller than 4".

Conceptually, here's how I view IS guns.

D12 = 14-15" guns
D10 = 10-12" guns
D8 = 8" guns
D6 = 4-5" guns
Light Guns = anything smaller

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

I keep reading about ships (modern and WW2 era) using 5" guns for illumination.  I can't find anything about WWI.  But in my mind, 5" guns would be secondary mounts on an IS ship.

Rather than limiting it to the designation on a particular ship (pri. or sec.), mayhap we should limit it by die size? e.g., a gun has to be d6 or larger to fire starshells... This has the effect of disallowing light guns from performing this task.

Also, special guns (lighting projectors, etc.) should be disallowed from firing starshells.

FWIW, my thoughts on the "sizes" of Iron Stars guns were as follows:

d4 = 4" or less (light guns in Grand Fleets)
d6 = up to 7"
d8 = up to 10"
d10 = up to 13"
d12 = up to 16"

This still restricts us from modelling the 18"ers from Japanese WW2 battleships, but we can worry about that when we get there... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

Rather than limiting it to the designation on a particular ship (pri. or sec.), mayhap we should limit it by die size? e.g., a gun has to be d6 or larger to fire starshells... This has the effect of disallowing light guns from performing this task.


You could, I guess.  I just don't picture a BB firing illumination rounds out of a 12" or 15" gun.  The only reason I was proposing secondaries is because most IS ships have D6 weapons for their secondaries, and D6 guns cover what, in the game setting, would equal a 5" weapon (or sumethin thereabouts).

Re: Star shells

themattcurtis wrote:

You could, I guess.  I just don't picture a BB firing illumination rounds out of a 12" or 15" gun.

Well, a ship would be silly to waste fire from a 15" gun for illumination rounds, unless it needed to do so for range purposes.

It's likely that secondaries will be used most often for this purpose, but there's no reason to legislate against primaries doing so if desired.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Star shells

It's likely that secondaries will be used most often for this purpose, but there's no reason to legislate against primaries doing so if desired.

Dass true.  I'm not the captain of another man's ether ship  smile