• Registered: 2007-09-13
  • Posts: 99

Topic: Something else for 2E

I love looking at different rule sets.  So its no surprise I've been checking out other WWI/WWII rule sets, just to see what they are like.  (None of them are as good as Grand Fleets IMO -- but I am curious.)

One thing I noticed in another set of rules, was morale rules for ships/squadrons.

After accumulating a certain amount of damage, a ship/squadron commander had to start making morale checks at the start of every turn.  If he failed the ship had to retreat from the battle.

This might be a good idea for something to incorporate into 2nd Edition.  It would add a little more realism to the game, rather than the wargamer approach of "fight to the last man and shell" all the time.

Anyway, just something to think about.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Something else for 2E

Really?

I actually think morale rules would be an interesting addition -- but I had never seen a rule set that incorporated them, so I thought we'd be laughed at by the Historical Gamer Establishment.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2007-12-17
  • Posts: 331

Re: Something else for 2E

I think it makes sense. There is historical precedence as ship and fleet commanders were often given orders to "preserve their ships". As a result, ships often retreated (or attempted to!) from battle after receiving critical damage or suffering fires.

I think calling it "morale" makes sense, although it should be explained to the gaming community as representing the level of a commander's willingness to sacrifice ships in the face of orders to preserve his command.

And, of course, some captains ignored such orders and pressed the attack anyway!

  • Registered: 2007-09-13
  • Posts: 99

Re: Something else for 2E

Historically commander "morale" or willingness to risk ships played a decisive role in shaping the outcome of many naval battles.

Jutland of course. . . from Jellicoe's decision to turn away from the German torpedo attacks - allowing the High Seas Fleet to escape, to Admiral Scheer's battle turn away, back again, and away a second time.

In WWII the Battle off Samar is another famous example.  Had the Japanese center force simply pressed on into the face of attacks by American destroyers and escort carriers, they would have been able to bombard the American landings at Leyte and possibly change the outcome of that campign.  Instead, they turned and fled against a vastly inferior opponent.

In wargames without morale rules, ships always fight to the death, which is highly unrealistic.  Morale is every bit as important to naval engagements as it is to land battles.

Perhaps if a ship/squadron fails a morale check they have to move directly away from the enemy and try to make it off a table edge until they either pass a morale check again or flee the battle.  The other rule set I looked at just had you remove ships as soon as they failed a check.  I think it would be preferable to give the opponent a chance to finish off a ship and/or the possibility that the ship might "regroup."

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Something else for 2E

Soulmage wrote:

The other rule set I looked at just had you remove ships as soon as they failed a check.  I think it would be preferable to give the opponent a chance to finish off a ship and/or the possibility that the ship might "regroup."

Out of curiosity, what was this "other rule set"?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-28
  • Posts: 65

Re: Something else for 2E

cricket wrote:
Soulmage wrote:

The other rule set I looked at just had you remove ships as soon as they failed a check.  I think it would be preferable to give the opponent a chance to finish off a ship and/or the possibility that the ship might "regroup."

What about awarding extra victory points when a ship that fails a morale test survives.

Something like 1 victory point per hull point left when the game ends.  This allows the commander to risk the ship if he feels it necessary for overall victory, while simulating the desire to not fight the ship to destruction if at all possible.

It also alleviates the need to dictate where the commander must move and what he should do as a result of a bad die roll. ie 'have to move directly away from the enemy and try to make it off a table edge.'

To prevent captains from desiring their ships to fail morale tests, you could add the caveat that any enemy ships destroyed by a ship with failed morale only counts for half victory points.

Or every hit on a ship with failed morale gives the opponent a victory point.

  • Registered: 2005-04-02
  • Posts: 34

Re: Something else for 2E

Out of curiosity, what was this "other rule set"?

I don't know what set Soulmage was looking at, but Seekrieg 4 has a rule for crews spontaneously abandoning ship (table U2).  I haven't seen Seekrieg 5, so I don't know if it was carried over to the new version.

For individual ships, this makes more sense to me than having one captain break formation to take his ship off somewhere and compose himself.

For the entire fleet, it seems that "morale" should be written into the victory conditions of the scenario, or perhaps are the ultimate meaning of the victory conditions.  Why, for example, does side A win by sinking X number of ships?  Because that's when side B has had enough.

The squadron level is more interesting, and I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head.

  • Registered: 2007-09-13
  • Posts: 99

Re: Something else for 2E

How about simply calculating victory points as

Points of damage inflicted on enemy
plus
Hull points of enemy ships sunk
minus
Hull points of friendly ships sunk

Or something like that.  Some kind of VP penalty assessed to the player whose ship was sunk. 

Or instead maybe give a VP bonus for each ship with broken morale the player is able to successfuly get off the table.  You could base it by ship type to reflect relative strategic value  (so broken destroyer flotillas which are of little strategic value don't yield a huge bounty of VPs when fleeing):

Destroyer Flotilla  +1
Light Cruiser  +2
Heavy Cruiser +4
Battlecruiser +8
Dreadnought +12

But I do like the idea that as an admiral commanding a fleet, your individual ship/squadron commanders might decide they've had enough and do their own thing.

The other rule set was Stations Manned and Ready:

http://www.aandagames.co.uk/stations_manned_and_ready.htm

I bought a PDF download through Wargaming Online for $11.50

http://www.wargamingonline.com/catalog/index.php

SMR handles it by assigning each tactical unit a commander.  Each tactical unit can be a single ship, or a squadron of ships.  Morale is handled at the commander level, so a commander of a battleship squadron breaking and running can have a significant effect on your fleet!

Actually, while I far prefer the Grand Fleets combat mechanics. . . they do have a very interesting Crew/Commander quality system.