Topic: Lock-On Rolls

Hi everyone,

We have played a couple games of Wardog in our local group.

One of my observations is that the lock-on roll is nearly a make-or-break feature of the game.  In my games, I had achieved a lock-on one time against a mech with a signature of 4 (over a few turn....).  I guess the expected outcome is that mechs are not easy to lock onto. 

Is this an intended feature of the game....with the intent that I had a melee weapon on my mech to use in close combat? I would be interested in hearing comments from others.

Thanks!
Todd

Re: Lock-On Rolls

I'd be happy to hear about experiences with locking-on, especially that I was told that low Thermal Signature vehicles can be difficult to target.

Won't it be too difficult to target them? Especially if they manage to cause some penalties to lock-on rolls? Is this intended to encourage to melee?

Re: Lock-On Rolls

It is a crucial part of the game, and one I haven't quite worked out yet.  Most of my playtesting had been with "non-maximized" Battletech conversions without using most options, so it wasn't so apparent, however it is very easy to reduce Thermal Sig's to very low or even impossible levels.

Using L4 Thermal Dampers, it is very easy to construct powerful mechs with TS's of 3-4, and possible but difficult to create mechs with TS's of 1-2 (especially is using fission rather than fusion, and sticking to kinetic weapons).  They will usually have enough MP's to get +1 or even +2 to the lock roll, cover can give them another +1 to +2, and use of smoke can give another +3 (the more precious decoy flares +5).

For instance, I've designed a series of mechs for my campaign.  The Voltiguer is a light mech that can move 12 and jump 9, and has a TS of 3.  The Fusilier is a medium mech that can move 9 and also has a TS of 3.  The Grenadier is a medium-heavy mech that can move 7 and has a TS of 4, but has 10 armor!  All of them have Smoke and Flares on top of that, and (especially the Fusilier) have fearsome arsenals of weapons and multiple levels of Enhanced Sensors.  I'll post these soon for comparison.

Possible solutions to this are using cheap levels of Enhanced Sensors (3 max, -1 lock per level), using the rare area effect weapons (ballistic airburst and/or multiple warheads, or EMP), or melee.  Enhanced Sensors can be countered to some extent by the more expensive levels of Electronic Countermeasures (2EM per level compared to 1EM per level for Sensors, max 2 levels).  Airburst weapons target the hex rather than the target (base 5), but are -2 DMG.  Multiple warhead weapons automatically hit the surrounding hexes, but have to hit a target first (combining the two is possible, makes a great anti-infantry weapon, but is hard to make effective versus mechs).  EMP's knock a target out for a turn - but you have to hit it first.  Melee has its own problems, one of which is exposing yourself to close-range fire.  In general, melee weapons are rather ineffective compared to specialized short-range weapons, but if you can avoid being hit and get into melee, it is the one solid option - unfortunately not as effective versus the smaller mechs that probably also have the lower TS's in the first place.  Also, if you're not really taken with the idea of mecha melee, then you shouldn't be forced into it by the remote targeting system.

Of course, Veteran pilots are another solution, if you have them, but then again Green pilots are another problem!

I haven't figured out a real solution to this yet.  I think part of the problem might be that range now effects damage instead of "to hit", although both make sense.  However, while it would be easy to rate weapons for "to hit" bonuses in the same way as damage, you would then have to roll for each weapons system.  Doing away with Electronic Countermeasures, or having them only effect AI, would be another balancing factor (and is something I'm thinking of using in my games).  After all, you already have Dampers and Stealth Systems to mask your TS, so what does EC do on top of that against thermal targeting?  Using a minimum TS of 1 would be another thing to consider, but would change the game a bit.  Combining a minimum TS of 1 and rolling for "lock" for each weapon system would change the system even more.

A possibly bloody way to go would be to use Full Size (instead of the half for TS) if in "open terrain", i.e. if you are in full visual view of the targeting systems and any Thermal Sig is just a bonus.  You would then use the standard TS if in cover of any sort, when the Thermal Sensing really comes into play.  It might just result in a game of hide-and-seek in cover, but then again cover is already important anyway.

I would be interested to hear other thoughts!

Re: Lock-On Rolls

Actually, now that I think about it, there isn't anything that would prevent the internal game logic from being ported over to physical targeting versus thermal targeting (this applies to the Steamtech vs High Tech thread as well).

Thermal Signature = Targeting Signature, based on Size.
Tech Modifier is due to size of power plant.
Thermal Dampers = Technical Developments that allow the same technology to be fit into a smaller frame, i.e. micro-sizing.
Stealth System = Stealth System
Ballistic and Energy Weapons increase TS because they are simply physically bigger than kinetic weapons.
Weapon Mod's that increase or decrease TS are likewise due to space requirements for the equipment.

Due to the % math of the "Thermal Dampers", using full Size instead of half Size for the TS would only raise the final TS by 1-2, but it would make the balancing of TS and equipment and weapons harder, and would doubtless make for a bloodier game.  I think there might be a "wait and see who runs out of smoke" effect, but that's already built in to the system to a certain degree.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

Yes...the lock on roll is intended to be somewhat difficult to achieve, particularly since it allows for automatic weapon hits against the target.

This does make for a more 'difficult' game with units that are more "optimal" type builds etc.  It also means players have to think tactically both in the construction phase as well as on the battlefield in order to maximize their advantages etc.  Personally, I've not had too many issues with it myself and it really keeps the game from becoming a predictable affair...just like real combat, which for me, keeps it all interesting and fun. smile

As Catenwolde said...if this becomes a headache for your group then you could play with the using a base thermal sig equal to size and/or limit the availability or level of thermal dampers.  As long as everyone playing is using the same 'rule mods' and having fun...it's all good. smile

Re: Lock-On Rolls

catenwolde wrote:

Thermal Signature = Targeting Signature, based on Size.
Tech Modifier is due to size of power plant.
Thermal Dampers = Technical Developments that allow the same technology to be fit into a smaller frame, i.e. micro-sizing.
Stealth System = Stealth System
Ballistic and Energy Weapons increase TS because they are simply physically bigger than kinetic weapons.
Weapon Mod's that increase or decrease TS are likewise due to space requirements for the equipment.

that was one of the things I was thinking about - base the Signature on Size for the settings where your targetting would be based more on vision or sounds than on special devices. for example at the 'clockwork' tech level, where thermal signatures tend to be low but also machines should be so big and clanking that they would be easy to spot and target.

and what was your idea? use Size as the base Targetting Signature and modify it in the same way as Thermal Signature would be modified?

Or modify the Size in some way and then use it as the base for Targetting Signature?

go0gleplex wrote:

Yes...the lock on roll is intended to be somewhat difficult to achieve, particularly since it allows for automatic weapon hits against the target.

I agree. This works for all the settings where you use some kind of devices to spot targets. But when spotting is based on what you see or hear, size or noise become more important. This is more important in the early tech levels (clockwork - which also has low Thermal Signatures, and steam). I believe it should be much easier to see a large metal clockwork walker (which has very low thermal signature) than a squad of infantry).

So I think that for such settings I would use Size as base for Targetting Signature, and then modify it in the same way as Thermal Signature would be modified.

Moreover, you all discuss optimal and suboptimal vehicles/walkers - ok, I agree creating them is a lot of fun, but sometimes you want to stick to a number of predefined vehicles so that the players have to use what they are allowed to choose from and cannot create their own vehicles.
In this case it's only the tactical aspect of the game that they will be able to experience and use for their advantage.
Not that there's anything wrong or right about it - just the way it can be (and will sometimes be in my case).

Re: Lock-On Rolls

Thanks for the replies!

In our game, a member of our gaming group has the rules and I believe we were using pre-generated mechs that had no specific purpose build.

I have to say that I would maximize the sensors based upon my experience with the lock-on rolls.

One option I was thinking about was adding +1 for each turn a mech attempts to lock onto the same other mech.  That mechanism would eventuallty override bad rolls (haha!).

Todd

Re: Lock-On Rolls

The cumulative +1 is actually a pretty good idea, and would provide some interesting tension.  I would say that a failed Stability roll would cancel the accumulated bonus.

The overall issue is one of stacking modifiers.  There are four classes of modifiers, which can be combined to great effect: 1) tech that reduces TS, 2) tech that provides cover, 3) movement, and 4) cover.

Tech that reduces TS is in the form of Thermal Dampers (up to 67% TS reduction but pretty expensive), Stealth System (straight -2 but pretty cheap), Ceramic-composite Armor (straight -2 and very cheap, but +1 to Dmg is tough), and Organic Armor (straight -1 and regenerating armor for only 2EM and no downsides ... obviously needs campaign consideration).

Tech that produces cover are Cratering Charge (+1, but canceled out by the -1 mod for standing still), Smoke Dispensers (+3), and Decoy Flares (+5/+3/+1).

Movement modifiers are -1 for 0-2 moved, +1 for 6-8, +2 for 9-12, and +3 for 13+.  The -1 for not moving means that most units won't sit still unless they have cover to cancel out the penalty.  Most medium and even heavy mechs can get the +1, and most light mechs can get +2.  It's possible to design very light mechs that get +3.

Cover modifiers are +1 for partial cover and +2 for forests (which I suppose accounts for the biomass making the TS fuzzy).

Enhanced Sensors can give bonuses to hit, but they can be canceled out by Electronic Countermeasures, which more or less produces an arms race where everyone will try to buy max levels of both if possible.

So, just by using movement and cover you should be able to get anywhere from +2 to +4 in average situations, meaning that mechs with a TS of 2-4 are going to be very hard or even impossible to hit.  A TS of 2-4 is easy to achieve with the use of Thermal Dampers by themselves, even for Fusion powered mechs with multiple hot weapons systems.  Given this math, the use of Smoke Dispensers and Decoy Flares essentially represent turns of being invulnerable to targeting, but they are limited in number (and you might want to save some in case your Thermal Dampers get hit).

Some possible variants to consider, depending on what flavor campaign you want to run:

1) Don't allow Thermal Dampers and Stealth Systems to stack, i.e. Stealth System is just a variant of Thermal Dampers and you have to choose one type or the other.
2) Reduce the effectiveness of Smoke to +1, and Flares to +3/+2/+1.
3) Reduce the number of Smoke charges to 3 and Flares to 1.
4) Don't allow Smoke and Flares to stack with Thermal Dampers or Stealth System, the "fluff" behind this being that they create a negative-effect cold halo that can be targeted just as easily as a TS.  If you use this one, you probably don't have to use #2 and #3!
5) Don't allow Electronic Countermeasures, which will allow Enhanced Sensors to cancel out a lot of bonuses, but will result in a bit of an arms race with everyone wanting L3 Sensors.
6) Use full Size instead of half size for calculating base TS.  Sounds radical, but given the math of the Thermal Dampers this will only result in an increase in final TS of 1-2.  However, it might be enough to make targeting easier and still leave the rest of the systems in place as is.

As for my campaign, I think I'll go for #1 and not mix Dampers and Stealth.  I like the idea of Smoke and Flares being "oh shit" resources that you use to save your shiney ass after your Dampers get taken offline, so I'll probably use #4 but not #2 or #3.  I'm not sure if I'll use #5 or #6.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

Here's the option I'm leaning towards...

The Movement Modifiers to lock-on become modifiers to DMG rolls instead, the + and - reversing of course.

The assumption here is that the unit's speed compromises the weapon penetration ability.  Or in simpler terms, the unit has a chance to shed the shot.  It reduces the stacking modifier issue without any major changes to game play and eliminates the zero effect issue from cratering charges.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

now this seems to be the answer to many issues mentioned so far!

including my idea of settings not relying on thermal targetting - now you can use size-based targetting and moving doesn't make target acquisition more difficult but causing serious damage becomes harder when the target is moving fast.

good one for me.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

It does seem good overall, however a unit with a TS of 1-2 will now be able to stand still in cover (-1 or -2 to effective TS) and be unhittable.  This is admittedly a pretty small range of mechs, such as Size 4 Hydrofusion mechs with all Kinetic weapons, or Size 2 mechs with only an overall +1 adjustment to base TS.  It makes Cratering Charges more powerful, because a TS 3 mech could place one in the woods and be unhittable, which is a nasty situation.

However, besides the "always hit on a 1 regardless of modified TS" option this does seem the simplest.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

which means send infantry or your own light units in to take and hold advantage terrain or close to short or point blank range and attack.

Don't panic yet...there's one other minor modification I'm pondering on as well to finish addressing the issue...but it doesn't include the "1" always locks because I believe that someone should be able to generate just such a situation if they are playing tactically.  However...it shouldn't be so easy to do as it is presently.

Re: Lock-On Rolls

It's been a long time...yet some things still sit at the back of my brain getting worked thru when the day job junk and life issues aren't stressing me out. lol 

I finally recalled the solution to the issue of not using Thermal Signature for lock-on in combat.  This was actually covered under Melee combat which is Unit Size+1 as the base. So if using a steam-tech setting and not wanting to use thermal sig...the melee option becomes the default to hit roll. 

Now...if I had only remembered that back when the question on this had originally come up... :roll: