You are not logged in. Please login or register.
Play nice. (This means you.)
Logins from the previous forum have been carried over; if you have difficulty logging in, please try resetting your password before contacting us. Attachments did not survive the migration--many apologies, but we're lucky we kept what we could!
mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Damage to upgrades
Hi,
Just a quick question - is there any rule in Starmada:AE which covers damage to upgrades (carrier decks, launch bays, targetting systems, etc.)?
I remember it was possible in S:X and think it was removed in S:AE
Am I recalling it correctly?
Yes, no damaga do traits. Only hull, engines and shields.
When we played this weekend, I was very aware of not being able to degrade teleporters and marines on the opposing side. We were getting blown up even without the marines, but it felt like a hole.
On the other hand, it is probably better than what I hear about the last version, where you chose which equipment to lose.
Maybe you could assign battery letters to special equipment. Then when your guns are gone, take those off. We shot all the guns off one ship, which was still able to dump a ton of marines on us.
andy
I was thinking about two things:
* The victim can choose to remove one RANDOM upgrade instead of 1 hull hit point.
* Extra Hull Damage might be allocated to RANDOM upgrades instead.
But the idea of treating them like batteries is interesting, too...
Why the idea came to my mind at all was when I thought about these scenarios where your FTL drive gets damaged during battle and you can't jump out of the fray, or your power lies in your fighters but the enemy manages to damage the landing decks - the fighters can't start, or ... can't land anywhere and are lost...
Better yet, imagine a campaign --- your carrier gets it's flight decks damaged. They manage to rescue the pilots, but have to abandon the fighters --- and now, you have a carrier and surviving support ships trying to make it back to friendly lines for repairs. If your universe has limited ranged jumps, there is the possibility of another battle while recharging between jumps, ect. It does open a large number of scenario ideas for battles.
Nahuris
The problem was that we could not come up with a simple and elegant method to handle damage to "equipment" and such while still avoiding the "damage sink" problems from Starmada X.
So we just decided to eliminate the problem. 
Of course, nothing keeps you from putting in house rules...
I think here comes a rough draft of a pretty simple but totally untested home-rule:
Count all the "hull points" and all the upgrades which can be damaged (some common sense may be needed here, unless you want to allow them all to be damaged).
Then divide the number of hull points by the number of "pieces of equipment", let's name this number X.
Now mark every X-th number in the hull track (eg with a dot or a circle). Each time such a field is marked off (damaged) one random upgrade is damaged too - in addition to hull.
This represents the fact that hull contains all the improvements and damage to hull gradually damages the equipment. The last piece of equipment would be damaged just before the ship gets destroyed.Example:
Ship has 12 hull points and 2 carrier upgrades and 1 FTL drive.
This means there are 12 points on the hull track, and 3 upgrades.
12 / 3 = 4
Every 4th field in the track would be marked.
So we've got: 12 11 10 9* 8 7 6 5* 4 3 2 1*
When the 9th number is marked off, you check randomly which upgrade is damaged. There are 3 of them: 1st is a carrier deck, 2nd is a carrier deck, 3rd is a FTL drive. So I roll 1d6 and count 1-2 = the 1st is destroyed, 3-4 = the 2nd is destroyed, 5-6 = the 3rd is destroyed.
I roll a 4, so I lose a carrier deck.
The next equipment piece would be gone at the 5 on the hull track.
Pretty easy, not perfect. But doesn't make ships any more durable, doesn't create a damage buffer. Just needs some flexibility with rounding of fractions and randomization.
What do you think?
That's sort of what I tried to post earlier today but got glitched when submitting.
I like that one Mahon..... I'll have to try it out and see.
Dan, I agree with the damage sink issue you mention..... we had a guy that would take as many cheap items as he could fit on a ship in Starmada X precisely for that reason.... we always compensated with either concentrated fire from multiple ships on him --- or taking the extra hull damage weapon mod.
Personally, I'd like to see fighters able to target special equipment... as in having my fighters specifically target the fighter bays on an enemy carrier --- If you remember the old Battlestar Galactica, there was an episode where the cylon fighters not only specifically targeted the hangers, but a couple actually rammed them.....
Nahuris
I think here comes a rough draft of a pretty simple but totally untested home-rule:
Count all the "hull points" and all the upgrades which can be damaged (some common sense may be needed here, unless you want to allow them all to be damaged). Then divide the number of hull points by the number of "pieces of equipment", let's name this number X. Now mark every X-th number in the hull track (eg with a dot or a circle). Each time such a field is marked off (damaged) one random upgrade is damaged too - in addition to hull. This represents the fact that hull contains all the improvements and damage to hull gradually damages the equipment. The last piece of equipment would be damaged just before the ship gets destroyed.Example:
Ship has 12 hull points and 2 carrier upgrades and 1 FTL drive.
This means there are 12 points on the hull track, and 3 upgrades.
12 / 3 = 4
Every 4th field in the track would be marked.
So we've got: 12 11 10 9* 8 7 6 5* 4 3 2 1*
When the 9th number is marked off, you check randomly which upgrade is damaged. There are 3 of them: 1st is a carrier deck, 2nd is a carrier deck, 3rd is a FTL drive. So I roll 1d6 and count 1-2 = the 1st is destroyed, 3-4 = the 2nd is destroyed, 5-6 = the 3rd is destroyed.
I roll a 4, so I lose a carrier deck.
The next equipment piece would be gone at the 5 on the hull track.
Pretty easy, not perfect. But doesn't make ships any more durable, doesn't create a damage buffer. Just needs some flexibility with rounding of fractions and randomization.
What do you think?
That would work, but I'd set the damage track little differently.
12 / 3 = 4
Every 4th field in the track would be marked, as you've done, but start from the right side (the last damage box).
Therefore, your damage track would like the this:
So we've got: 12* 11 10 9 8* 7 6 5 4* 3 2 1
Also, and this will involve one extra die roll, but have the asterisk represent a 50% chance of a piece of equipment being destroyed.
There are two reasons I'm suggesting doing it this way instead of the way you're suggesting.
The first is that equipment damage isn't automatic, just the *chance* of it occuring. This should mean every game will be a little different, in the way that Full Thrust is.
Secondly, the way you did it means that a piece of equipment is lost on the last hull box, or when the ship is finally destroyed. By that time losing that last piece of equipment doesn't matter. I feel there should be a chance of a ship losing all of it's equipment before taking the last hull box of damage.
All of this being said, there's no reason you couldn't have the "equipment threshold" slots slightly outnumber the pieces of equipment, especially if there's only a chance of equipment being destroyed when you cross a threshold.
Kevin
not a bad idea, but I liked the approach when the ship could take some punishment before losing any systems.
otherwise the first upgrade will be lost too easily...
and you may be right - making it only a chance of destroying the equipment might be interesting, but a little difficult to implement it well for me. maybe someone can do it properly?
not a bad idea, but I liked the approach when the ship could take some punishment before losing any systems.
otherwise the first upgrade will be lost too easily...
and you may be right - making it only a chance of destroying the equipment might be interesting, but a little difficult to implement it well for me. maybe someone can do it properly?
If you don't like the possibility of losing equipment on the first hull box, then just set the intervals at something that doesn't have the last piece of equipment destroyed on the last hull box. Maybe start with the second to last hull box, and then do your "every four" interval.
Just make sure to "start right and go left."
As for the chance of damage, that'd be easy.
Just do it the way you've proposed, but make it a 4+ roll on a d6 *before* you go to your "damaged equipment roll."
So when you get to a hull with an asterisk, only on a 4+ roill will a piece of equipment be destroyed. Then determine what piece is destroyed by rolling on your table.
Kevin
mahon wrote:not a bad idea, but I liked the approach when the ship could take some punishment before losing any systems.
otherwise the first upgrade will be lost too easily...
and you may be right - making it only a chance of destroying the equipment might be interesting, but a little difficult to implement it well for me. maybe someone can do it properly?If you don't like the possibility of losing equipment on the first hull box, then just set the intervals at something that doesn't have the last piece of equipment destroyed on the last hull box. Maybe start with the second to last hull box, and then do your "every four" interval.
Just make sure to "start right and go left."
As for the chance of damage, that'd be easy.
Just do it the way you've proposed, but make it a 4+ roll on a d6 *before* you go to your "damaged equipment roll."
So when you get to a hull with an asterisk, only on a 4+ roill will a piece of equipment be destroyed. Then determine what piece is destroyed by rolling on your table.
Kevin
Or to save a roll, record the special equipment top to bottom in the order preferred, and mark off when damaged/destroyed accordingly...top to bottom.
So what happens when you have more special equipment than hull? What about multiples of the same thing, such as Anti-Fighter Batteries, Teleporters, Marines? How is Carrier space damaged? Can Armor Plating be damaged? The inherent launching and recovery capability of a ship is not listed, so how does that get damaged? How do you repair these things?
So what happens when you have more special equipment than hull? What about multiples of the same thing, such as Anti-Fighter Batteries, Teleporters, Marines? How is Carrier space damaged? Can Armor Plating be damaged? The inherent launching and recovery capability of a ship is not listed, so how does that get damaged? How do you repair these things?
Fire control for AFB's is knocked out. Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...
Several ways to figure that one out easily. Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.
Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.
Here's how I'd do it.
Every N hull boxes has an asterisk in it. I'd default it to every 3rd, with fragile ships doing every 2nd and durable ones every 4th.
When a hull box with an asterisk is in it, roll 2d6- (2 six sided dice, subtracting the lower die result from the higher die result), and take off that many upgrade systems. The first system taken off is the defender's choice, second is attackers, third is defender's, fourth is attacker's, fifth is defender's.
The distribution for 2d6-:
0 = 3 in 18 (16.67)
1 = 5 in 18 (27.77)
2 = 4 in 18 (22.22)
3 = 3 in 18 (16.67)
4 = 2 in 18 (11.11)
5 = 1 in 18 (05.55)
This way, these sorts of systems don't make a ship any more durable (you're still losing the hull box at the same rate as any other system), but they do mean that you lose capabilities when they get whacked.
Fire control for AFB's is knocked out. Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...
Several ways to figure that one out easily. Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.
Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.
well, if you want you can agree that armor plating can be damaged too - enough extra armor is blown off that it no longer serves its purpose...
as for multiples - treat each one like a single entry. so three carrier upgrades would be treated like three single upgrades. each one can be damaged separately.
more equipment than hull:
treat it similar to batteries - you will damage more than one at once.
eg. if you have 3 hull points and 6 upgrades, 2 upgrades would be gone on each hull hit. 3 hull points and 4 upgrades - I would make it 2-1-1-1 per hull point.
GamingGlen wrote:So what happens when you have more special equipment than hull? What about multiples of the same thing, such as Anti-Fighter Batteries, Teleporters, Marines? How is Carrier space damaged? Can Armor Plating be damaged? The inherent launching and recovery capability of a ship is not listed, so how does that get damaged? How do you repair these things?
Fire control for AFB's is knocked out. Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...
Several ways to figure that one out easily. Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.
Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.
It isn't that easy.
So ALL the AFBs are knocked out in one hit? They do fire separately, not as one battery. All the marines are dead in one hit?
No, it's better as it than being that drastic.
S:X had 1d6 losses for some systems, which is what I foresee could be done for this system. But I raise the point because it seems to be overlooked with all the proposals so far.
go0gleplex wrote:Fire control for AFB's is knocked out. Power relays to the Teleporters is disrupted rendering them kaput. Marine Quarters are hit...or the Flight Deck...Launch Tubes are hit...
Several ways to figure that one out easily. Armor plating cannot since it is inherent to the Hull, as stated.
Repairs are made in space dock. Or you could always use the Damage Control = Marines scenario, fix-it on a 1 of 6 roll. Again...not terribly difficult.
well, if you want you can agree that armor plating can be damaged too - enough extra armor is blown off that it no longer serves its purpose...
as for multiples - treat each one like a single entry. so three carrier upgrades would be treated like three single upgrades. each one can be damaged separately.
I don't put in multiple carrier upgrades. I figure out all the carrier space needed and design the ship having one carrier entry. So your proposal fails to handle people designing ships in that manner.
Perhaps using S:X's 1D6 units damaged, you could multiply 1D6 x 50 for amout of carrier space damaged, although it really doesn't matter most of the time as the fighters and seekers are probably already launched and recovery never seems to have any importance in the games I've played.
Another way to include this is anytime a 6 is rolled for IMP, there is a chance for a equipment hit (roll a d6)
1-3: No equipment damaged
4-5: Owning player chooses a system
6: Opponent chooses a system
Everything, be it armor plating or AFB are subject to equipment hits. For some of them (namely Transports, marines & AFB), roll 1d6 to determine the number lost. For carrier space, it's 1d6 x 50 points.
-Bren
easy to add to the game, but also adds more dice throwing.
nothing wrong about it though, if we didn't like dice throwing we wouldn't be playing such games...
What if you just use existing mechanics to minimizes rolls but maybe add some book keeping?
- Categorize existing systems as General, Defensive, or Offensive
-- General systems: Cargo, Hospital, Hyperdrive, Overthrusters, Repair, Science, Transport
-- Defensive systems: Armor Plating, Cloaking Device, Countermeasures, Point Defense, Regeneration, Stealth
-- Offensive systems: Anti-Fighter Batteries, Carrier, Fire Control, Launch Tubes, Marines, Mines, Teleporters
- Add 3 new damage charts (General Systems, Defensive Systems, Offensive Systems) with 6 boxes each
- Add systems to appropriate damage charts (one block per system so some blocks will be empty)
- When rolling Damage a 2, 4, or 6 causes system damage
-- For each 2 roll on the General System chart
-- For each 4 roll on the Defensive System chart
-- For each 6 roll on the Offensive System chart
- Specific system degradations would need to be created (e.g. each Marine hit injures 5 squads)
- After a system is destroyed additional rolls are ignored
- When rolling on Damage Control chart systems may be restored
-- For each 1 or 2 roll on General System chart
-- For each 3 or 4 roll on Defensive System chart
-- For each 5 or 6 roll on Offensive System chart
Adheres to existing mechanics. Fits within the existing combat system. Not too many extra die rolls.
Cheers
If you don't like loosing special equipment until the ship's half blown up, maybe this....
(Burnside's idea)Every N hull boxes has an asterisk in it. Default is every 3rd, with fragile ships do every 2nd and durable ones every 4th.(Googleplex's idea)Record the special equipment top to bottom in the order preferred (during ship construction), and mark off when damaged/destroyed accordingly...top to bottom.
.......
Armor protects special equipment, the damage roll must have been greater than the armor value, otherwise the hull is the damaged, not the equipment.
Something that I have been working on for trial:-
System takes damage when ship takes a hit from weapons with either Double Damage or Extra Hull Damage traits and if IMP roll is 6+ (More likely with higher piercing weapons), Irrespective of hull size.
Roll 2D6 on chart.
Mark off one damage from each system on that line. Chart rolls over if more than 11 different systems on the ship.
If line is blank then next line up with a system present takes the damage. If more than one system on a line each takes one damage. If a system has multiple numbers i.e. Marines x3, it is still on one line so to some extent "Padding" with cheap options has little effect.
All options taken are included (even armor plating, which may have been trashed). In the shipyard the chart is auto-generated, the only choice is the order in which equipment is picked.
See example chart.
Paul
[attachment=0]Equipment Damage.jpg[/attachment]
I like it and will give it a try!!
mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Damage to upgrades
Powered by PunBB, supported by Informer Technologies, Inc.