• Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Topic: Shipyard Versions

I'm looking for several things in a SM:AE Spreadsheet

1.)  Ease of modability (so I can add in things as they are added)
2.)  Presence of every optional rule under the sun, including those just discussed on forums
3.)  Open Office Compatability

Ive noticed of the three or four SM:AE construction spreadsheets, only the standard one from MJ12 Games seems to not get some kind of 'burps' from Open Office, but, sadly, it doesnt do variable mode weapons, piercing greater than 1, much less ablative armor and armored gun batteries.

The most detailed version, Shipyard, seems to respond poorly to open office (particularly with Ablative Armor.. first point increases the CR of the ship ENORMOUSLY, but going from the 11th to 12th point does almost nothing)... but has all the options I want.

Finally...  Piercing 1.4 (SMAE).  Piercing +1 1.5 (Dreadnoughts).

Which is correct?

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Shipyard Versions

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Finally...  Piercing 1.4 (SMAE).  Piercing +1 1.5 (Dreadnoughts).

Which is correct?

Piercing +1 is x1.4

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Shipyard Versions

Thanks!

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Shipyard Versions

Marcus Smythe wrote:

Ive noticed of the three or four SM:AE construction spreadsheets, only the standard one from MJ12 Games seems to not get some kind of 'burps' from Open Office, but, sadly, it doesnt do variable mode weapons, piercing greater than 1, much less ablative armor and armored gun batteries.

I think that you will find that the mj12 Games spreadsheet has always been pretty much core rules only even under Starmada X.

Marcus Smythe wrote:

The most detailed version, Shipyard, seems to respond poorly to open office (particularly with Ablative Armor.. first point increases the CR of the ship ENORMOUSLY, but going from the 11th to 12th point does almost nothing)... but has all the options I want.

Strange, The shipyard is written with Open Office. Mind you there have been quite a few problems since Version 3.0 of Open Office as some things are now done differently. Open Office calc 3.0 is no longer 100% compatible with Excel nor Open Office calc 2.4.
I have tried to fix parts as problems arise to make the shipyard usable with all three.

With regards to Ablative Armor from Starmada X in the forum, the CR does jump at points but that is down to the calculation given by Dan way back. See the Armored Gun Batteries and Redundant Shielding thread. There was a problem but it should work ok in the latest version.

As always, if something in the shipyard is not working let me know, I am too near the forest to see the trees sometimes.

Paul

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Shipyard Versions

Id have to reread the old formulae for Ablaltive Armor.

What I'm seeing, in both open office and excel, is a MASSIVE bump in CR from the first point.  I THINK that the hull value of the ship is getting added to the amount of the ablative armor when the impact of the ablative armor is calculated...

I'll reread the thread, and see if I see any problems with the formula/implementation!  Not like I know anything...

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Shipyard Versions

I think I found the problem...

I've snipped from Dan's old post about Ablative Armor...

Well, as a starting point...

The current CR formula (with its built-in assumption that you are losing firepower equally as the ship loses hull) is

Square root of (HITS INFLICTED PER TURN times HITS TO KILL)

You can assume that, over the life of the ship, the average firepower is three-quarters starting firepower (since, on average, a ship has lost half its firepower at the time it is destroyed). Sooo... the firepower during the time when ablative armor is being lost is the average firepower divided by 3/4. Thus, the formula just for the time while the ship is losing armor is

(HITS INFLICTED PER TURN divided by 3/4 times ABLATIVE HITS)

Because it's all multiplication, the "divided by 3/4" can be shifted to the number of ablative hits. As ablative hits are lost twice as quickly as hull hits, you must subsequently divide by 2, for a final relationship of:

ABLATIVE HIT = HULL HIT x 4/3 x 1/2 = HULL HIT x 2/3

So, the base defensive value becomes:

((ARMOR x 2/3) + HULL) x SHIELD FACTOR

Note that the above formula is for the base defensive value.

It appears in the shipyard spreadsheet that you are using the above formula in cell AO 113, which you use to calculate the value of the ablative armor... not the value of the entire ship.

By using the Base Defensive Value formula as the Ablative Armor Cost formula, you are essentially charging any ship with ablative armor twice for its hull.

At least, so it appears to my bad-at-Excel, bad-at-math self.

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Shipyard Versions

I think that you are right, I messed up, looks like I thought it was just for the Armor instead of a replacement base rate.
The calcs are right, as you pointed out at the time there should have been a x2 in there.

"Dont you always mutliply hullx2 before applying the shield and other modifiers? Since defensive rating is based on hits-to-kill, which is usually going to be hullx2?

Dan replied
You are correct. I had left the x2 out initially because it's a constant."

Still correcting this is easy so that if chosen, the Ablative Armor base CRd rate replaces the one based on hull alone. Just wish someone had spotted it 18 months ago.
Thanks.
Paul
Edit: v21 now posted, see what you think. Also added name place for spinal weapon.

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Shipyard Versions

Now the CR drops when I add the first few points of ablative armor... as in drops below the CR of the vessel with 0.

I wish I could get 'under the hood' and help out with the actual coding, rather than just constantly being the bearer of bad tidings.

Thanks again for all your work, BTW....

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Shipyard Versions

I do not mind but this is going to bug me now.
Of course without the ship details that you used I cannot work out what is going wrong. I have tried to replicate it but failed. For example:
Ship with Hull4 Engine2 Shield0 1 Laser weapon:
No Armor,            +1AB,              +2AB,               +3AB
O:11,                    11,                  11,                  11
D: 8,                       9,                  11,                  12
CR:9,                    10,                  11,                   11
CRD:8,                    8,                   8,                     8
ABCRD:0,                9.33,             10.67,               12

Ship with Hull10 Engine4  Shields4 1 Laser weapon
No Armor,              +1AB,             +2AB
O:13,                     13,                   13
D:60,                      85,                  91
CR:28,                    34,                  35
CRD:60,                  60,                  60
ABCRD:0,                85.33,             90.67

The new DCR is AZ12 on the Template sheet which replaces the regular DCR base with the Ablative DCR base if the Ablative Armor is used.
Can you post the Drake notation for your ship?

Paul

  • Registered: 2007-06-18
  • Posts: 128

Re: Shipyard Versions

Type: , Mars Class,   Heavy Cruiser  (581)
Hull: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: [TL0] 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1 1           
Shields: [TL0] 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1           

Weapons : 1:[XZ], 2:[X], 3:[Y], 4:[Y], 5:[Z], 6:[Z]
Weapons
Battery X:   20 cm Hellbore (E) TL0,  6/12/18, 1/3+/1/2
Piercing +3, Increased Impact, Slow Firing
[AC]  [AC] [BD] [BD]
Battery Y:   Class B Plasma Batteries (E) TL0,  5/10/15, 1/4+/1/1
Non–Piercing
[ABC]  [ABC] [ABD] [ABD]
Battery Z:   Sunburst Array (E) TL0,  2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1
Area Effect, Repeating, Carronade & Range-Based ROF
[G] [J] [H] [K] [I] [L]


Special Equipment
Fire Control : Marines (Squad)(6) :

Type: , Mars Class,   Heavy Cruiser  (547)
Hull: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: [TL0] 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1 1           
Shields: [TL0] 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1           
Ablative Armor: 1
Weapons : 1:[XZ], 2:[X], 3:[Y], 4:[Y], 5:[Z], 6:[Z]
Weapons
Battery X:   20 cm Hellbore (E) TL0,  6/12/18, 1/3+/1/2
Piercing +3, Increased Impact, Slow Firing
[AC]  [AC] [BD] [BD]
Battery Y:   Class B Plasma Batteries (E) TL0,  5/10/15, 1/4+/1/1
Non–Piercing
[ABC]  [ABC] [ABD] [ABD]
Battery Z:   Sunburst Array (E) TL0,  2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1
Area Effect, Repeating, Carronade & Range-Based ROF
[G] [J] [H] [K] [I] [L]

Special Equipment
Fire Control : Marines (Squad)(6) :
Ablative Armor

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Shipyard Versions

Checked it through

Type: , Mars Class,   Heavy Cruiser  (581)
Hull: 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1          :    Available SU=2529
Engines: [TL0] 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 1 1            SU=820
Shields: [TL0] 5 5 5 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1            SU=715

Weapons : 1:[XZ], 2:[X], 3:[Y], 4:[Y], 5:[Z], 6:[Z]
Weapons
Battery X:   20cm Hellbore (E) TL0,  6/12/18, 1/3+/1/2                      SU=648
Piercing +3, Increased Impact, Slow Firing
[AC] [AC] [BD] [BD]
Battery Y:   Class B Plasma Batteries (E) TL0,  5/10/15, 1/4+/1/1         SU=96
Non–Piercing
[ABC] [ABC] [ABD] [ABD]
Battery Z:   Sunburst Array (E) TL0,  2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1                             SU=492
Area Effect, Repeating, Carronade & Range-Based ROF
[G] [J] [H] [K] [I] [L]

Special Equipment
Fire Control                                          SU=127
Marines (Squad)(6) :                              SU=30

Damage Control Dice: 3
Another problem: SU available = 2529    SU Used = 2928      399 overweight without Ablative Armor. 417 with Ablative Armor.

With Ablative Armor CR does fall to 547 this is due to the high shield factor which makes the regular base CRD
higher than the Ablative Armor base figure.
For now I will change it to the higher of the two figures but it does wrongly give a way to have armor without paying in the CR. :shock:

Paul