• Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Topic: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Hi there:

My name is Joaquim and I'm from Portugal.
I've been playing starmada for some time now, using my minis and my personnal universe with my wife, kid brother and friends. We've started with an SF rpg and when we needed a combat system I found Starmada and I liked it so much that we started to play it also as a boardgame. Sometime ago I found IS.

Uau.

I started playing some weeks ago with the demo rules with my kid brother and we loved it, so I bought the 3 books. As I live in Portugal I bought the PDF's, it's faster, and I printed it right away. We started to play the minute after we cut and glued the counters and we've read it all in a night session that was a little more extended than it should have been. I love the entire set, my wife loves the setting and my brother also loves it. We discuss imediatly a rpg in this set and some expansions that it should have. We had a great idea for an expansion (at least we still think that way after some sleeping and conveying again to discuss it). Would you care to ear it? I can send you a page and an half of historical background, extra rules ideas and ships.

We use the tent counters and it's okay. I have a lot of lead minis but this game feels good playing with the tent counters. But I think you would profit if you make a box counter of all the minis already published and sell it as a PDF extra. I would buy it right away. I think others would do it also, and it would revitalize the game until another expansion gets out.

Finnaly, I think you should write more fluffy material about the ships. People like it and it gives the ships more importance to players. Do you remember Renegade Legion Leviathan? The ship tech readout was one of the best things from the game.

Sorry if I was inconveniente with my suggestions. I do love your work, keep it with this type of excellency.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Oh goodness no, you've said nothing at all inappropriate. I'm happy to hear that you've enjoyed playing!

More fluff would be great, as would the idea to make a 'spare counters' supplement.

You just have to understand that the creative drive is spread out over a lot of products, and that it's a pretty small team that all have day jobs. I can't speak for Dan, but I'd be surprised if he hadn't given some thought as to what we'll do next.

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Hi:

Some questions about the internal logic of the game to the game creators:

The ships in IS are build in the ground and they go up the atmosphere and into the aether by the use of their engines, right? And they go down again to refuel, re-arm and deliver cargo and load cargo. So why can't these ships fight in the atmosphere?

How much time would it take to a ship travel from Earth to Mars or Venus?

Are you planning to move the historical events to mirror our real story? 1st world war, the crash of '29, 2dn ww, etc?

Thanks in advance for the answers.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Blackronin wrote:

Some questions about the internal logic of the game to the game creators:

You are assuming there is logic involved -- a very dangerous assumption. wink

The ships in IS are build in the ground and they go up the atmosphere and into the aether by the use of their engines, right? And they go down again to refuel, re-arm and deliver cargo and load cargo. So why can't these ships fight in the atmosphere?

Actually, the ships are assembled in orbit from components built on the ground. The idea is that there are no "rocket engines" or such -- but Cavorite "blocks" gravity and makes it easy to make an (uncontrolled) ascent into orbit.

Technically, I suppose there's no in-universe reason why the ships couldn't fight in the atmosphere...

How much time would it take to a ship travel from Earth to Mars or Venus?

We're assuming that it took the Martian cylinders about 3 months to get to Earth (the time between the opposition of February 1901 and the spring landings). It would probably take humans a bit longer to get there, at least at first.

Are you planning to move the historical events to mirror our real story? 1st world war, the crash of '29, 2dn ww, etc?

The Great War is definitely on the list of Things to Come -- but the rest is either secret or undecided.

(FWIW, the opposition of August 22, 1924, will be/was closer than at any time in 300+ years...)

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

cricket wrote:
Blackronin wrote:

Some questions about the internal logic of the game to the game creators:

You are assuming there is logic involved -- a very dangerous assumption. wink

Heh...

Whereas Dan's focus has always been (I assume, based on the results) balance in Game Play, he's not always on top of the technobabble in the background.

BUT, this is the kind of stuff I thrive on.....
smile

cricket wrote:

The ships in IS are build in the ground and they go up the atmosphere and into the aether by the use of their engines, right? And they go down again to refuel, re-arm and deliver cargo and load cargo. So why can't these ships fight in the atmosphere?

Actually, the ships are assembled in orbit from components built on the ground. The idea is that there are no "rocket engines" or such -- but Cavorite "blocks" gravity and makes it easy to make an (uncontrolled) ascent into orbit.

Technically, I suppose there's no in-universe reason why the ships couldn't fight in the atmosphere...

I always assumed they were launched much like normal wet-navy ships of the day from special docks. It would certainly simplify construction. Zero-Gee construction is a real bear...

Insofar as fighting 'in atmosphere, I think I advocated 'aeronughts' at one point. Much like their space-capable cousins, but more akin to zeppelins in use.

cricket wrote:

How much time would it take to a ship travel from Earth to Mars or Venus?

We're assuming that it took the Martian cylinders about 3 months to get to Earth (the time between the opposition of February 1901 and the spring landings). It would probably take humans a bit longer to get there, at least at first.

Not a clue, haven't really thought about that....


cricket wrote:

Are you planning to move the historical events to mirror our real story? 1st world war, the crash of '29, 2dn ww, etc?

The Great War is definitely on the list of Things to Come -- but the rest is either secret or undecided.

(FWIW, the opposition of August 22, 1924, will be/was closer than at any time in 300+ years...)

[size=100]IRON STARS - THE WAR WITH MARS![/size]

ooo.... :shock:

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,286

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

I had figured the ships were lofted by use of Cavorite buoys.  Crew and cargo could also use the buoy system then be tugged to their appropriate berth.  As HG Wells' intrepid adventurers Cavor and friends showed, the use of shutters and practice of Cavorite flight takes no small degree of skill.  To much to make it practical for aeronautical style sailing and battle.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

go0gleplex wrote:

I had figured the ships were lofted by use of Cavorite buoys.  Crew and cargo could also use the buoy system then be tugged to their appropriate berth.  As HG Wells' intrepid adventurers Cavor and friends showed, the use of shutters and practice of Cavorite flight takes no small degree of skill.  To much to make it practical for aeronautical style sailing and battle.

Cavor's Sphere was rather small, and Cavor wasn't an engineer.

A Zeppelin-style craft would be able to offset the enormous lift provided by cavorite by balancing 'normal' weight against mass that is weightless and shielded by Cavorite - using either shutters along the bottom (to effect how much of the ship's mass is affected) or by 'outriggers' that are affected by gravity outside the bottom Cavorite sheathing. You'd get an effect very like bouyancy because the weight of the craft that's affected by gravity could be balanced against the portion that isn't. Larger masses would give you more of a margin for error than Cavor's tiny sphere.

You wouldn't even have to use aerodynamic shapes unless the expected speed was high - they could literally be flying boxcars!

Another off-shoot could be 'floating airfields' - using the bottom Cavorite shield to 'throw' a heavier-than-air craft well up into the air - giving it enough height and/or speed to give a tactical advantage.

Aeronaughts and Aethernaughts could be built side by side, Aeronaughts need not be airtight, and could even be Aethernaughts that are no longer airtight by virtue of damage or age.

Dreadnoughts of the Air indeed!

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,286

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Yes...you could do something really large like the dirigible, but why since Cavorite has no "mass limit"? It would be a waste of funds really. 

I do like the idea of a "runway / launch pad" sort of thing though.  The ship gets moved onto it...or built over it and the shutters open sending the whole ship upwards until ground receives the "all ether" signal or whatever...then the shutters close.  (as noted in HG Wells' original text, everything above the cavorite, including his roof etc, was sent upwards...so this would be consistent from a story standpoint and efficient and cost-effective from an engineering standpoint. wink

Landing the ships though would be a bugger due to an entirely different set of issues.  Can't land it the same way you launched it since the planetary rotation would move the "beam" off the ship and require great coordination of navigation and movement by the crew. 

"RIG SHIP FOR LANDING"...the cavorite bumpers were ran out and shutters checked before navigational and helm command were given over to the landing officer, with the captain standing by to see all was rightly done. 

But therein again, we have the solution of one issue working for both and creating needless expense. (stupid bean counters anyhow. wink)

Ooops...sorry guys. I'm applying logic. my bad.  :oops:

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

So, in the internal logic of IS (that don't have to be logic), what you are saying is:

a) it is very difficult to use the "anti-grav" drive, and so basicaly we can lift things up outside atmosphere, but not in the atmosphere;
b) we can use aether ships in the atmosphere, and basicaly naval ships are completely outclassed, for speed, weight, maneovering and firing;
c) basicaly we don't want to get rid of naval ships (sentimental valour and all that stuff) so we will arrange a way to put up and put down ships and cargo, but not let those pests fly in the atmosphere.

...


Well?

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

go0gleplex wrote:

Yes...you could do something really large like the dirigible, but why since Cavorite has no "mass limit"? It would be a waste of funds really.

Well, the larger the vehicle, the larger the 'margin of error' in piloting - small vehicles would have small margins of 'bouyancy'...that's why Cavor's sphere was such a bear to handle.

Yes, as accuracy improved, vehicles could be made smaller to save on materials. But we're talking the early 1900's here...


go0gleplex wrote:

I do like the idea of a "runway / launch pad" sort of thing though.  The ship gets moved onto it...or built over it and the shutters open sending the whole ship upwards until ground receives the "all ether" signal or whatever...then the shutters close.  (as noted in HG Wells' original text, everything above the cavorite, including his roof etc, was sent upwards...so this would be consistent from a story standpoint and efficient and cost-effective from an engineering standpoint. wink

Well, I was actually thinking of a 'carrier' that was a mobile platform lauching aircraft, but that would work too. Hmm... nice idea actually.

The roof was ripped off due to airflow, I'd imagine, not the Cavorite directly. Cavorite doesn't 'repel' - it simply blocks gravity's influnence. Imagine a tornado's effect on houses...same thing, really.


go0gleplex wrote:

Landing the ships though would be a bugger due to an entirely different set of issues.  Can't land it the same way you launched it since the planetary rotation would move the "beam" off the ship and require great coordination of navigation and movement by the crew.

All the more reason to make ships that move in space under their own power (and thus possibly re-enter the atmosphere) have their own cavorite shutters/plating. Aeronaughts would HAVE to have it, Aethernaughts could actually do without it after launch into space. Given the dodgy (by modern standards) materials and engineering of that time, I suspect most ships would have them.

go0gleplex wrote:

"RIG SHIP FOR LANDING"...the cavorite bumpers were ran out and shutters checked before navigational and helm command were given over to the landing officer, with the captain standing by to see all was rightly done. 

But therein again, we have the solution of one issue working for both and creating needless expense. (stupid bean counters anyhow. wink)

Ooops...sorry guys. I'm applying logic. my bad.  :oops:

Bunny trails can lead interesting places.... smile

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

I'd prefer the idea that you can reenter atmosphere at a much lower speed and you could float the aethership in atmosphere and use it tactically. Mainly because of Mars, Venus and perhaps the Jupiter moons. It would give the stting much more freedom.

"Captain. Do you see that strange object in that redish valley?" "Yes, Mr. Jennings, lower her down two miles and pass her south of that building..." "Yes, sir. I say sir, it looks like a fortress." "You took the word from my lips. Put the guns crew in stand-by, Mr. Jennings." "Aye-aye, sir."

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Blackronin wrote:

I'd prefer the idea that you can reenter atmosphere at a much lower speed and you could float the aethership in atmosphere and use it tactically. Mainly because of Mars, Venus and perhaps the Jupiter moons. It would give the stting much more freedom.

"Captain. Do you see that strange object in that redish valley?" "Yes, Mr. Jennings, lower her down two miles and pass her south of that building..." "Yes, sir. I say sir, it looks like a fortress." "You took the word from my lips. Put the guns crew in stand-by, Mr. Jennings." "Aye-aye, sir."

I agree with you, what I was saying earlier was that we'd have non-space-capable, cavorite-equipped ships for local defense and attack in Earth's atmosphere. They'd be a bit cheaper, because they'd only need a conventional power plant and don't have to be airtight.

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

So, there should be a "game" way to build aetherships without the sealing system and the space engines. With more space for other equipment and different fluff, right?

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

One thing that you've got to understand is that Iron Stars is something written up by guys in different cities, that have (with one or two exceptions) NEVER met face to face. There's been no 'consensus' on how certain things work. If Dan (Dan Kast in the credits section - our slightly-less-fearless leader) puts it in the source books, then it's (more or less) canon.

I'm going to miss someone here - my apologies ...

Matt Curtis is an excellent writer, and volunteered to do the write-ups for a significant portion of the books, the same can be said of Todd pote - who also wrote 'Wardogs. Dan ties all that writing, with additional input from the other guys in the credits section, chunks in my pictures, and puts it to press.

I'd like to think that I have SOME input into how ships look, and some say in the techno-babble, but it's Dan's call. I'm just a pixel-pusher and middle aged cheerleader (leaving some people with a mental image that I hope keeps them awake at night)... lol


Blackronin wrote:

So, in the internal logic of IS (that don't have to be logic), what you are saying is:
a) it is very difficult to use the "anti-grav" drive, and so basicaly we can lift things up outside atmosphere, but not in the atmosphere;

I think I outlined that above, but yeah, dealing with cavorite-equipped vehicles in atmosphere would be a bit trickier than an airplane. You've got aerodynamics AND gravitics to deal with.

Blackronin wrote:

b) we can use aether ships in the atmosphere, and basicaly naval ships are completely outclassed, for speed, weight, maneovering and firing;

Aetherships/Aethernaughts are going to have a lot of additional hardware that they have to carry around - just like FTL ships in Starmada - exactly how that effects game play is up to Dan.

Blackronin wrote:

c) basicaly we don't want to get rid of naval ships (sentimental valour and all that stuff) so we will arrange a way to put up and put down ships and cargo, but not let those pests fly in the atmosphere.
...
Well?

This is a financial question, really. It depends on how pricey cavorite is.

TECHNICALLY, you can have trans-oceanic traffic be all Aerocraft, using 'wet navy' ships only for short hauls and fishing. I can see Aeronaughts assuming a role much more like aircraft do today, with heavier than air craft being in a much more reduced role in society.

See, Dan? I TOLD you we'd eventually get questions about this...
big_smile

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Blackronin wrote:

So, there should be a "game" way to build aetherships without the sealing system and the space engines. With more space for other equipment and different fluff, right?

Sure, but that's up to Dan. I see it as being analogous to FTL in Starmada...

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Thanks, mr. Vice Admiral. It was enlighting what you wrote.

As for myself, I'm mortar and stone in this universe, so I'll pester you all a lot. Sorry.

One more thing that came to my mind: Critters. In this universe, the aether is a substance and the aether is cold, but must it be voided of life?

Can you please derive on that?

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,424

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Blackronin wrote:

Thanks, mr. Vice Admiral. It was enlighting what you wrote.

As for myself, I'm mortar and stone in this universe, so I'll pester you all a lot. Sorry.

One more thing that came to my mind: Critters. In this universe, the aether is a substance and the aether is cold, but must it be voided of life?

Can you please derive on that?

Eh, not now...I've sent out an email, if no one has any objections, I may forward some ideas. I'll have to ponder things for a bit and let others have their say. Do YOU have any ideas on that acount? I tend to think of MJ12games as the pen-and-paper equivalent of Open Source - others can contribute, in fact, you're welcome to do so!

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

Sure.

I can think of two types of approach to critters. A RPG one and a boardgame one.

In the rpg approach we can think of it all. Kinda-space whales, space-juggernauts, little energy feeders, etc.

In the boardgame approach I can think of three type of creatures:

Gigantic menaces: very hard-skinned creatures that prey in the deep aether.

Hoards: Gigantic baloon-like creatures that humanity learned to use. Aether ships can hoard it and defend it against other potences and gigantic menaces (see above).

School of small creatures: Bands of small creatures that can range from simply annoying to destructive.

  • Registered: 2022-11-15
  • Posts: 1,286

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

One that comes to mind is from Titan: AE.  The wake angels.  Sort of the aether's version of the sea-going dolphin.

The gigantic menaces...well...I'd rather not see those show up. At least not within the planetary system.  For one...there's plenty enough dangers currently.  Two...they'd really play merry cobblewobble with gravitational effects...and panic people staring through telescopes. (I really hope that was an asteroid blotting out venus)

From a biological perspective, this would tend to treat solar systems like atoll shoals and lagoons...teaming with smaller life while out in the deep, the real monsters dwell.

Ultimately, the decision is Dan's...the above is merely my opinion.

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 193

Re: Give Her Some Throtle Mr. Jennings and Point Her Up.

I like the biological perspective, the ecology of solar systems. The aether space corrents. What would live in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter?