• Registered: 2007-12-28
  • Posts: 30

Topic: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

I was reverse-engineering some ISS ships with OldNGrey's Shipyard, and I found that I was unable to get them right.
Somehow calculations were always wrong for Negali ships.

Which means?
Something's not quite right about tech levels, because Negali fleet uses tech level modifier.
Either the ISS book or the Shipyard is wrong.

And I managed to find one thing - engines' SU usage was miscalculated because Shipyard rounded the score up (AS6 cell in Template spreadsheet), which caused the miscalculation. After changing it into normal rounding, the SU usage was calculated right for the engines.

But what's the RIGHT way of calculating? Round UP or use the normal 4/5 method of rounding?
There must be other differences in calculations in Shipyard, because even though I set the right Tech Range (2), I could not get the values right whenever tech levels were different than 0.

Any insight?

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

mahon wrote:

I was reverse-engineering some ISS ships with OldNGrey's Shipyard, and I found that I was unable to get them right.
Somehow calculations were always wrong for Negali ships.

Which means?
Something's not quite right about tech levels, because Negali fleet uses tech level modifier.
Either the ISS book or the Shipyard is wrong.

Strange, The shipyard uses the same calculations as the official shipbuilder, (OK it is a little bit more complicated as everything has it's own tech level.) When the Tech Range is set to 2 on the Tables sheet C2, the modifiers match those on page 42 of the core rules but I'll have another look at it.

mahon wrote:

And I managed to find one thing - engines' SU usage was miscalculated because Shipyard rounded the score up (AS6 cell in Template spreadsheet), which caused the miscalculation. After changing it into normal rounding, the SU usage was calculated right for the engines.

But what's the RIGHT way of calculating? Round UP or use the normal 4/5 method of rounding?
There must be other differences in calculations in Shipyard, because even though I set the right Tech Range (2), I could not get the values right whenever tech levels were different than 0.

Any insight?

Core rules page 28, Engine and Shield factors, "As with the SU total, these results are rounded up to the next interger." Just as per the official shipbuilder.

Examples in the books do not always conform to the shipyard or shipbuilder (look at the examples in Dreadnoughts!)

Can you please post the drake notation that you have.

Thanks
Paul

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

OldnGrey wrote:

Examples in the books do not always conform to the shipyard or shipbuilder (look at the examples in Dreadnoughts!)

There are problems with the ships in Dreadnoughts?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2007-12-28
  • Posts: 30

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

OldnGrey wrote:

Strange, The shipyard uses the same calculations as the official shipbuilder, (OK it is a little bit more complicated as everything has it's own tech level.) When the Tech Range is set to 2 on the Tables sheet C2, the modifiers match those on page 42 of the core rules but I'll have another look at it.

but in Shipyard engines take 64 SU, and in Shipbuilder - 56. Obviously different way of rounding.
The modifiers for tech levels seem to be OK, as I checked them where I found them.

Core rules page 28, Engine and Shield factors, "As with the SU total, these results are rounded up to the next interger." Just as per the official shipbuilder.

yep, but p.28 doesn't seem to take TL into account. and until this moment Shipyard is accurate.
it's only after applying the TL modifier where it differs.

As I said - use the ship I sent you in a PM, and check cell AS6 in the Template sheet. change rounding from 'round up' to 'round' and it will change from 64 to 56

Can you please post the drake notation that you have.

Thanks
Paul

As it's one of the 'official' ships, I don't want to post it to the public forum.
Check page 56 in the SAE:ISS book.

cheers,
mahon

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

cricket wrote:
OldnGrey wrote:

Examples in the books do not always conform to the shipyard or shipbuilder (look at the examples in Dreadnoughts!)

There are problems with the ships in Dreadnoughts?

So you said, when I asked about the weapon examples and there were questions about the flotillas I think.
Was there a revised edition? I know some revised ships were posted here on the forum.

Paul

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

Gone through the calculations.
As Eric Morecombe would have said, All the calculations are there, not necessarily in the right order.

The OCR was the problem. I am sure it used to agree with the shipbuilder to within a point or two. I blame Oo3.0 myself, some times I hit the wrong button when it makes suggestions as to formulae.
Going senile as well as blind I think.

Anyhow, changed some of the rounding etc and should now agree with the shipbuilder.

Sorry to everyone.
v26 posted

Paul

  • Registered: 2007-12-28
  • Posts: 30

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

thanks a lot, and as I said - thank you for creating such a powerful tool!

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

OldnGrey wrote:

So you said, when I asked about the weapon examples and there were questions about the flotillas I think.
Was there a revised edition? I know some revised ships were posted here on the forum.

I know that the ships don't work out in terms of space units and such -- is that what you're referring to, or do some of the CR values come out wrong?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

cricket wrote:
OldnGrey wrote:

So you said, when I asked about the weapon examples and there were questions about the flotillas I think.
Was there a revised edition? I know some revised ships were posted here on the forum.

I know that the ships don't work out in terms of space units and such -- is that what you're referring to, or do some of the CR values come out wrong?

Partly, they could be confusing to anyone new reading the book. If I remember correctly, you said that the CR's were correct.
You intended to do a replacement page/s for the examples on pages 11 and 17. You said that the example on page 11 was totally wrong. I do not remember seeing a revised page.
Paul

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

OldnGrey wrote:

You intended to do a replacement page/s for the examples on pages 11 and 17. You said that the example on page 11 was totally wrong. I do not remember seeing a revised page.

The problem is, I only have the "current" version of pages 11 and 17, so I can't tell you if/when it was changed.

Please PM or email me and remind me what I should have done... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-03-23
  • Posts: 241

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

Well, I've noticed a little error that crops up in the CORE Shipbuilder from the MJ12 website. specifically in the way that Weapon TL affects ORat calculations of Battery X,Y and Z in cells G20, G26 and G32 of version 2.2. If all of the TLs are set at 0 and a ship is designed, when you change the weapon TL to say +1 or -1, the ORat of the design changes. This shouldn't happen. This is happening due to the weapon TL mods being nested in multiple Round functions in cells J19, J25 and J31 and then being unapplied in Cells G20, G26 and G32, throwing the rounding off.
I haven't used the Shipyard programs to see if they are duplicating this rounding error.

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Tech levels and rounding (Shipyard related)

japridemor wrote:

Well, I've noticed a little error that crops up in the CORE Shipbuilder from the MJ12 website. specifically in the way that Weapon TL affects ORat calculations of Battery X,Y and Z in cells G20, G26 and G32 of version 2.2. If all of the TLs are set at 0 and a ship is designed, when you change the weapon TL to say +1 or -1, the ORat of the design changes. This shouldn't happen. This is happening due to the weapon TL mods being nested in multiple Round functions in cells J19, J25 and J31 and then being unapplied in Cells G20, G26 and G32, throwing the rounding off.
I haven't used the Shipyard programs to see if they are duplicating this rounding error.

Guilty, in an effort to get the two spreadsheets to give the same results I made this sort of mistake in the shipyard. Since your post I have been through the shipyard and made corrections. Had to add a bit since they have to account for dual mode weapons as well. Will be in version 27. Thank you for spotting it.

Paul