Re: Iron Stars background depth...

In alot of ways you're right about the Nazis and Nihilists.  It follows if one cannot ever know the difference of right and wrong then there is no action that is wrong.  There are alot of flavors of nihilism and anarchism out there.  Suffice it to say there would be any number of groups that would be willing to call the Martians in to help with a human suicide.  And there would probably be no consensus on what to do (or try to do) to the Martians before, during and afterwards.  No cool uniforms, which is sad.  But I do find them fascinating in an headachey sort of way.

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:

However, I don't recognize "Tsar Wars" or "Natas"...

Sorry, another couple of George Griffith's works, although he didn't refer to them as Tsar Wars himself.  Bit early for that play on words, y'know?  You can get the skinny here:

http://www.heliograph.com/buy.shtml

Basically, "Natas" is the head of a terrorist-but-in-a-good-way(?) organization devoted to stopping war and overthrowing all the tyrannies of the Earth (especially Tsarist Russia, who Natas has a personal beef with), which they accomplish mostly by lucking out and running into the dead-broke inventor of the world's first viable airship engine as he's thinking about killing himself.  They proceed to build a small fleet of airships and intervene selectively in the sort-of-worldwide war that breaks out shortly thereafter.

Angel of the Revolution ends with the world at the feet of the triumphant Aerians, who found a Utopian society in the mountains of Africa after destroying the ability of other governments to wage war and saving Britain from a Franco-Russian invasion complete with subs and war zeps.  Syren of the Skies takes place 150(?) years later, when the Aerians, following the prophetic commands of the long-dead Natas, give control of the world back to the national governments.  This leads to all sorts of entertainment, as the last heir of the Tsars promptly steals an Aerian skyship, duplicates it, and starts a world war that gets interrupted by most of the life on the planet being destroyed by a cosmic fire-cloud.

No, really, a cosmic fire-cloud.  Maybe we do need terrain rules in Iron Stars, eh?  smile

For my money, much better stories than the rather better-known Honeymoon in Space, although you still have to allow for a fair amount of dated "period" thinking...Anglo-Saxons are inherently a superior race, all of Islam is a united militaristic juggernaut, democracy is an inherently flawed concept that will lead to the blind rule of the uneducated masses, that sort of thing.  Enjoyable despite that, and (amazingly) carried by Barnes & Noble.

Rich

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

thedugan wrote:

I'm thinking un-organized proto-Nazi's without the snazzy uniforms. They'd be out to destroy the human race, certain they could keep the genie in the bottle...

Okay... I don't mean to seem flippant here, but Nazis without the snazzy uniforms aren't really Nazis, are they?

Aside from the fact that people still study WW2 Germans in large part because of their uniforms, the whole fascist house of cards is built on a foundation of ritual and symbolism.

If we're gonna introduce proto-Nazis, they've gotta have nifty duds.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

hundvig wrote:

Angel of the Revolution ends with the world at the feet of the triumphant Aerians, who found a Utopian society in the mountains of Africa after destroying the ability of other governments to wage war and saving Britain from a Franco-Russian invasion complete with subs and war zeps.  Syren of the Skies takes place 150(?) years later, when the Aerians, following the prophetic commands of the long-dead Natas, give control of the world back to the national governments.  This leads to all sorts of entertainment, as the last heir of the Tsars promptly steals an Aerian skyship, duplicates it, and starts a world war that gets interrupted by most of the life on the

So, how much of this is compatible with the Iron Stars background so far?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:

I'm thinking un-organized proto-Nazi's without the snazzy uniforms. They'd be out to destroy the human race, certain they could keep the genie in the bottle...

Okay... I don't mean to seem flippant here, but Nazis without the snazzy uniforms aren't really Nazis, are they?

Well, I'd consider Nietzsche a 'Proto-Nazi'...<shrug>

There was a whole neo-religious undertone to the Nazi Movement, and it was based (in large part) on the work of Nietzsche.

Geez, who'd figure we'd be talking about Nietzsche here?
:-)

cricket wrote:

Aside from the fact that people still study WW2 Germans in large part because of their uniforms, the whole fascist house of cards is built on a foundation of ritual and symbolism.

If we're gonna introduce proto-Nazis, they've gotta have nifty duds.

Well, okay.....I'd say that the point in time that we'd introduce them and the exact origin is up for discussion. WW1 provided the emotional fuel for Hitler's excesses, if the Kaiser is still in control, and the Weimar Republic doesn't happen, Hitler doesn't rise to power, and remains a crappy scenery artist in Vienna....

If we have Nazi analogs that help out the Martians, they HAVE to have snappy uniforms....:-)

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:
hundvig wrote:

Angel of the Revolution ends with the world at the feet of the triumphant Aerians, who found a Utopian society in the mountains of Africa after destroying the ability of other governments to wage war and saving Britain from a Franco-Russian invasion complete with subs and war zeps.  Syren of the Skies takes place 150(?) years later, when the Aerians, following the prophetic commands of the long-dead Natas, give control of the world back to the national governments.  This leads to all sorts of entertainment, as the last heir of the Tsars promptly steals an Aerian skyship, duplicates it, and starts a world war that gets interrupted by most of the life on the

So, how much of this is compatible with the Iron Stars background so far?

Well, not much if you stick to Griffith's timeline, which is a bit silly in spots.

But you could very easily have the Red Russians as catspaws or allies of that shadowy organization known as the Terror, lead by Natas and his lovely-but-ruthless-in-a-good-way daughter, Natasha.  And Natas, who claims to be a prophet with uncanny powers of the mind, might very well be a dupe of the Martians, who presumably are up to mentally dominating the odd Terran mystic or two.

The airship inventor (who was so colorless I've forgotten his name...typical period hero) presumably drowned himself after hearing the news about Cavor.  So, no free ride for Natas and company.

The World Wars are (presumably) still on the schedule in IS, just delayed and with different players than Tsar Wars.

The Earth being destroyed by a cosmic fire-cloud is still over a century in the future, which gives mankind plenty of time to conquer the rest of the Solar System, invent FTL travel, or just figure out how to stop the silly thing.  I can't see a spacefaring humanity (and the British Empire in particular) rolling over and accepting their fate the way they did in the books.  Surely some clever engineer will invent planetary-scale ether props by that time, allowing them to just move the Earth out of the way, or ram and disperse the cloud with some useless piece of real estate (pish...like we really need Uranus!), the latter option being tidier in the long run.  And you know how Her Majesty likes things tidy.  smile

Rich

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

hundvig wrote:

But you could very easily have the Red Russians as catspaws or allies of that shadowy organization known as the Terror, lead by Natas and his lovely-but-ruthless-in-a-good-way daughter, Natasha.  And Natas, who claims to be a prophet with uncanny powers of the mind, might very well be a dupe of the Martians, who presumably are up to mentally dominating the odd Terran mystic or two.

I hadn't even thought of the mental compulsion angle... smile

I like this -- a lot. In the Iron Stars rulebook, I make brief mention of "Liberta Rossa", which means "Red Liberty" in Italian.

If Liberta Rossa is just one 'branch' of a shadowy underworld organization, then we could tie a lot of these ideas into a very scary situation, especially if the point of this group (these groups) is to prepare the way for the Second Invasion.

*A "political arm", a la Sinn Fein, who could be the core of our "proto-Nazis", complete with snazzy outfits and over-the-top rhetoric.

*A "criminal arm", like that of Moriarty, perhaps led by Natas. They provide the cash.

*A "military arm" made up of mercenaries who may or may not be devoted to "the cause", or just want to soak up the money and excitement.

Who knows? Maybe the military arm has gotten hold of some ether-ships...

The airship inventor (who was so colorless I've forgotten his name...typical period hero) presumably drowned himself after hearing the news about Cavor.  So, no free ride for Natas and company.

A shame, really. smile

The World Wars are (presumably) still on the schedule in IS, just delayed and with different players than Tsar Wars.

Indeed -- although not really delayed. I expect us to get to WW1 right on schedule. Just wait 'til you see the next supplement... heh...

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

Only suggestion I would make is for there to be different 'fingers'  in at least the political and military 'arms'.   Why would the Martians (or Natas) put all of their eggs in one basket?  Seems like any large organization is going to draw unwanted attention and get smashed.  Smaller ones might get lost in 'background noise'.

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

aresian wrote:

Only suggestion I would make is for there to be different 'fingers'  in at least the political and military 'arms'.   Why would the Martians (or Natas) put all of their eggs in one basket?  Seems like any large organization is going to draw unwanted attention and get smashed.  Smaller ones might get lost in 'background noise'.

Seems reasonable to me... but in true evil empire fashion, there has to be someone (or someTHING) at the heart of it all... bwahahahahaha.... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:
aresian wrote:

Only suggestion I would make is for there to be different 'fingers'  in at least the political and military 'arms'.   Why would the Martians (or Natas) put all of their eggs in one basket?  Seems like any large organization is going to draw unwanted attention and get smashed.  Smaller ones might get lost in 'background noise'.

Seems reasonable to me... but in true evil empire fashion, there has to be someone (or someTHING) at the heart of it all... bwahahahahaha.... smile


But of course...that's where the 'criminal' arm comes in.



And thinking on why the Marsies have been sort of tardy in attacking the Earth.  Perhaps they never discovered Cavorite on their own.  But if they now have Earthling allies.... 

So they've spent the ensuing years building their new aether fleet.

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

This might be worthwhile for atmosphere (I haven't had a chance to read it yet).  Apparantly the Hearst newspaper group decided to cash in on the success of War of the Worlds with their own serial.  It was called "Edison's Conquest of Mars" by Garrett P. Serviss and can be found here (http://durendal.org:8080/ecom/index.html).  It's a scan of the original newspaper and so hard to read.  Also CG Publishing is coming out with an edition soon (http://www.cgpublishing.com/Books/Edison.html).  Noted as the first story to have space suits and describe a battle in space.

Also there is another American serialization by the Boston Post and entitled "Fighters from Mars - or The Terrible War of the Worlds as it Was Waged in or Near Boston in the Year 1900".  Haven't found anything on that one other than a mention that it exists.

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

A bit behind the times...and going back to the Martian Ship portion of this subject.

Given 10 flashes of light, and assuming a martian cylinder launch for each one, no relation to size of cylinders is given.  Therefore, each flash was visible on the surface of mars from earth via telescope that would seem to indicate a very large projectile.  Martians being tri-limbed and such, it would seem reasonable to assume their space craft would be as well.  Kind of like a three limbed starfish looking thing. (this visualizes rather elegantly) Stack 10 or more of them into a cylinder formation for launch...and with 10 launches you have a 100 ship armada heading for earth, each armed with heavy heat beams and magnetic fields rather than armor and projectiles.  The British LPs would be least effected by the shields.

Consider each tripod walker a lander type craft, two or three carried under each arm of the ship as a blister pod, dropped from orbit to earth...and it creates a rather respectable global sized invasion force.

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

Go0gleplex wrote:

Consider each tripod walker a lander type craft, two or three carried under each arm of the ship as a blister pod, dropped from orbit to earth...and it creates a rather respectable global sized invasion force.

Agreed, and you are right in that it visualizes rather well... however...

I have two problems with this:

(1) The narrator of the book seems to imply that there were only ten cylinders

H. G. Wells wrote:

As it passed it set up an exultant deafening howl that drowned the
thunder--"Aloo!  Aloo!"--and in another minute it was with its
companion, half a mile away, stooping over something in the field.  I
have no doubt this Thing in the field was the third of the ten
cylinders they had fired at us from Mars.

Now, he may not have known what he was talking about, so we can likely dismiss this-- but the second is more important:

(2) As already evidenced by your struggles with the Spanish, I NEED the Martian Invastion to be fairly well localized. There are reasons why this would be so -- the Martians obviously thought (correctly) that there was no need for a global assault; go after the richest nations first and move on from there.

The reviewer who originally sparked this discussion was right about one thing; the whole point of the Invastion in Iron Stars terms is to spark the Space Race -- and that's difficult to do if the entire world is reeling from a catastrophic War. It's much easier to justify if the Great Powers suffer a blow, giving the rest of the world a chance to get up from under foot; but with a developing world still unscathed, the Britains and Germanys et al will still have resources to draw upon and recover fairly quickly.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:

(2) As already evidenced by your struggles with the Spanish, I NEED the Martian Invastion to be fairly well localized.
[...]
The reviewer who originally sparked this discussion was right about one thing; the whole point of the Invastion in Iron Stars terms is to spark the Space Race --

Why can't I spell "Invasion"?

smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

cricket wrote:
cricket wrote:

(2) As already evidenced by your struggles with the Spanish, I NEED the Martian Invastion to be fairly well localized.
[...]
The reviewer who originally sparked this discussion was right about one thing; the whole point of the Invastion in Iron Stars terms is to spark the Space Race --

Why can't I spell "Invasion"?

smile

Ummmm...because you're still stunned  by my spectacular artwork?
:-P

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

:oops: I really do need to go back and re-read the original WotW.  Your quote pretty well indicates the cylinder sizing...(darn it! I liked the space starfish. *chuckles*) 

Just throwing ideas out from early posts in this thread. smile

Oh well...the starfish can come later with the metal men and friends.  :wink:

Re: Iron Stars background depth...

Go0gleplex wrote:

A bit behind the times...and going back to the Martian Ship portion of this subject.

Martians being tri-limbed and such, it would seem reasonable to assume their space craft would be as well.  Kind of like a three limbed starfish looking thing. (this visualizes rather elegantly) Stack 10 or more of them into a cylinder formation for launch...and with 10 launches you have a 100 ship armada heading for earth, each armed with heavy heat beams and magnetic fields rather than armor and projectiles.  The British LPs would be least effected by the shields.

Consider each tripod walker a lander type craft, two or three carried under each arm of the ship as a blister pod, dropped from orbit to earth...and it creates a rather respectable global sized invasion force.

Err, I don't recall Wells describing the Martians as tri-limbed, or tri-radial in symetry. They had clusters of tentacles.  The tripods were threee legged, but the handling machines may not have been.  I do wonder how many tripods were packed in each cylinder... certainly it was 1 Martian to a tripod, and they were presumably shipped in pieces and then assembled. We also have Martian mining and materials processing described for us.

For those who are interested in a slightly different take check out "War of the Worlds: Global Dispatches" an anthology of short stories inspired by WotW. Some are quite a hoot.  It is also possible that all 10 of the cylinders described by Wells fell on England, we know that more than one did. This also gives a reason for the war to have had a less than shattering effect on the Earth.