Topic: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Has there been a forum topic started for this yet (besides under the news announcement)?  Or did I just start it.

Honestly, I am so happy Star Trek and Starmada are making the jump forward. This opens whole new possibilites in starship combat Star Trek ships.
It will be interesting to see how Starmada treats the shields of the Star Trek universe.  Depending how you look at it, the shields of Star Trek are basically a solid wall.  Depending on the attack, vibration, and energy get through. But, this depends on the type of attack. The way I see it,  The shields have a set amount of damage they can absorb or deflect before crashing.  So, for lack of better terminology, the shields should be able to absorb X number of damage pts before crashing. Of course, you will have to see if you go all or nothing, meaning the shield hits from any direction deplete the amount of protection, or is each arc seperate from the rest.  FC does treat the shields as thought they have different facings.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Well, Klingon Armada is about the "Star Fleet Battles" (shortened to SFB a lot of places) universe, not the "Star Trek" universe. A fine point, but a contractually significant one.  big_smile

Yeah, I'm curious about what Dan's brewing, myself - and look forward to it.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Actually, there's been quite a lot of *spirited* discussion about KA, what form it might take, different approaches to the rules. I think it's important for Dan to hear all viewpoints.

While recognizing that this has to be "SFB Starmada" (and not a straight "Starmada version of Trek in general"), I think there's probably some "unique to SFB concepts" that could be tagged as optional or advanced rules. Things that would make the casual gamer say, "What? That doesn't feel like Trek." The more generic it is, the more like mainline Trek it will appear, while staying within the bounds of the SFU.

Given that the new movie, which is garnering rave reviews, is set in an alternate universe as well, I think folks will be very open to giving KA a try. Very timely. How'd you manage that?

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

falstaffe wrote:

Actually, there's been quite a lot of *spirited* discussion about KA, what form it might take, different approaches to the rules. I think it's important for Dan to hear all viewpoints.

Apparently, I've missed that - where?

falstaffe wrote:

While recognizing that this has to be "SFB Starmada" (and not a straight "Starmada version of Trek in general"), I think there's probably some "unique to SFB concepts" that could be tagged as optional or advanced rules. Things that would make the casual gamer say, "What? That doesn't feel like Trek." The more generic it is, the more like mainline Trek it will appear, while staying within the bounds of the SFU.

Yeah, true enough. One of the things about this - as I understand it - is that it has to incorporate enough "SFB-isms" to be recognizable as SFB-as-Starmada. Now, if the fans want to use it as a basis to play Trek, that's fine - I suspect it'd be unofficially encouraged even if ADB and MJ12 can't recognize or profit from it.

DISCLAIMER - I am not an employee of MJ12 Games, but I could play one on TV.....

falstaffe wrote:

Given that the new movie, which is garnering rave reviews, is set in an alternate universe as well, I think folks will be very open to giving KA a try. Very timely. How'd you manage that?

Don't look at me....
big_smile

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

thedugan wrote:

Well, Klingon Armada is about the "Star Fleet Battles" (shortened to SFB a lot of places) universe, not the "Star Trek" universe. A fine point, but a contractually significant one.

Yeah... ADB is not allowed to use the word "Trek" in any context.

So I may have to add it to the banned words on the forum... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

thedugan wrote:

One of the things about this - as I understand it - is that it has to incorporate enough "SFB-isms" to be recognizable as SFB-as-Starmada.

While at the same time *not* having to incorporate so much new stuff that it's no longer Starmada.
My guess is that more importance will be given to conforming the SFB designs to the Starmada engine than conforming Starmada to SFB.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

cricket wrote:
thedugan wrote:

Well, Klingon Armada is about the "Star Fleet Battles" (shortened to SFB a lot of places) universe, not the "Star Trek" universe. A fine point, but a contractually significant one.

Yeah... ADB is not allowed to use the word "Trek" in any context.

So I may have to add it to the banned words on the forum... smile

Dude, you are SCARCE nowadays....

I wouldn't ban it, but members (or even some of the Admiralty) may have to be reminded from time to time.
smile

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

underling wrote:
thedugan wrote:

One of the things about this - as I understand it - is that it has to incorporate enough "SFB-isms" to be recognizable as SFB-as-Starmada.

While at the same time *not* having to incorporate so much new stuff that it's no longer Starmada.
My guess is that more importance will be given to conforming the SFB designs to the Starmada engine than conforming Starmada to SFB.

And I would expect no less.

Being a former SFB player, I'm lookng forward to seeing this.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Well,
SFB does mention that it is based on the Star Trek universe (TOS only).  FC also thanks GR for the universe (if my memory is accurate).  I have played SFB, I play FC, and I play Starmada.  So I to am also looking forward to this game.
The look and feel of FC is pretty accurate for most of The Original series feel.  Phasers, torpedoes, and shields of FC have the flavor of TOS.
How warp drive, photon torpedoes, phasers, disruptors, plasma torpedoes, and shields work in FC will have to be done in Starmada terms, but, for the most part, the rules are pretty much already there in the starmada game system.
I think how shields work (in games terms) will take a little modification of the Starmada system on how shields work.

In FC, there are shield boxes for each side.  You have those shields up on a side until enough damage has been absorbed by that shield to be dropped.  Then there is shield reinforcement, etc.

Starmada FC should have shields that reflect the FC way, right?  In my opinion, and it is only that, the shields in the FC/ Starmada universe should have the ability to absorb X number of damage points before the shield is downed.  So, unless other special rules apply (half-shields, ignore shields, etc), each arc should be able to absorb an amount of damage up to X, then it is down and offers no protection.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

It sounds like the shields used in SFB-Starmada will be similiar to the ablative armor rules used in Starmada "X". 8-)   
Will this type of shield only be usable in SFB style ships or will the rules for it be usable for home-built Starmada ships?  Will regular Starmada shields be usable with the SFB shields.  That is, weapons penetrating the Starmada-style shields will then the SFB shields 'til their gone... :geek:

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

BeowulfJB wrote:

It sounds like the shields used in SFB-Starmada will be similiar to the ablative armor rules used in Starmada "X". 8-)   
Will this type of shield only be usable in SFB style ships or will the rules for it be usable for home-built Starmada ships?  Will regular Starmada shields be usable with the SFB shields.  That is, weapons penetrating the Starmada-style shields will then the SFB shields 'til their gone... :geek:

Well, whatever Dan & Co. comes up with for KA for shields I would think it will certainly be an option to use in other settings. That's one of the joys of Starmada's "modular" system. Hard/Ablative shields are not strictly a Trek toy, and would certainly fit in any number of settings...and thus represented by Starmada.
Of course, I'm speculating like everyone else, and can't wait to see what else comes from KA that can be cross-pollinated to other genres/ships! Besides, unless Dan shows up at your chosen gaming venue with a cease and desist order because you are using Trek shields on your ships...I'm pretty sure we can all do what we want with the rules once published  wink
Cheers,
Erik

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Yeah... ADB is not allowed to use the word "Trek" in any context.

So I guess the whole "Trekmada" idea was doomed from the start?
:oops:

Anyway, looking forward to it. Maybe now I can even get my non-wargaming rpg buddies to give it a try!

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

speaking of ablative armor, IS there ablative shielding in the admirality edition?  Albative shielding does seem to fit the trek way of doing things.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Well,
I did a search of my rulebooks, I didn't find ablative shields in what I own...or maybe I just over looked it.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

kehrer1701 wrote:

Well,
I did a search of my rulebooks, I didn't find ablative shields in what I own...or maybe I just over looked it.

As far as I know, there has never been ablative shielding in any version of Starmada. If it shows up in SFBarmada, that will push me into getting it.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

I am guessing that "ablative shielding" will most likely find it's way into KA since that is the feel of the Federation Commander/ SFB technology.  Perhaps each arc will have a limit of damage it can take before dropping.  Perhaps there will just be a pool of damages points that must be exhausted before any damage get's through (meaning a hit from any direction just drains one well of shield points).

Dan: any hints yet?

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Where did you find ablative armor in X?  I didn't see that option. Which product

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

kehrer1701 wrote:

Where did you find ablative armor in X?  I didn't see that option. Which product

Ablative Armor was an "In Forum" item which did not make it to any rule book.

See:http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1170

Paul

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

kehrer1701 wrote:

I am guessing that "ablative shielding" will most likely find it's way into KA since that is the feel of the Federation Commander/ SFB technology.  Perhaps each arc will have a limit of damage it can take before dropping.  Perhaps there will just be a pool of damages points that must be exhausted before any damage get's through (meaning a hit from any direction just drains one well of shield points).

Dan: any hints yet?

If its SFB/FC based then it HAS to have directional shields,  the best and most unique thing about SFB is all the tactical ramifications of the shielding...  favoring a weak shield keeping it away from the enemy and risking exposing it to the enemy for a good firing opportunity.   Without directional shields, it really doesnt work for me.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Perhaps then "directional-ablative" shielding

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

I wonder if the movement sequence will port over? From my limited SFB experience (tried to learn it a couple of times, Fed Commander also), energy management, shields and movement were pretty core elements to tactics. The first seems extremely problematic to adapting to Starmada (good luck!)  The second's a no-brainer, and the third in-between. Sometimes in Starmada it *would* be nice to turn, fire, move, fire again, etc. I just dread SFB's solution. Would it work to break the movement into two phases (or more, depending on the speeds involved), with options to fire each weapon once anytime during the turn? I did something like that for a Kirk vs. Kahn game, and it seemed to go pretty well.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

I'm not opposed to anything discussed here, so please don't consider this an attempt to squelch discussion... but I should remind everyone that the ultimate goal is not to recreate SFB/FC using Starmada game mechanics, but to represent Federation/Klingon ships in Starmada in a manner CONSISTENT with SFB/FC.

A fine, but important, distinction.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

Well, in that Spirit, I am going to start posting SFB/Starmada stats for my game this weekend.

Starting with the Diminutive Klingon E4 Escort:

(75) E4-class Klingon Empire Escort

Hull: 4 3 2 1                   
Engines: 7 6 4 2                   
Shields: 3 3 2 1                   
Weapons:
1:X 2:X 3:Y 4:Y 5:Y 6:

X: Disruptor: 4/8/12, 1/3+/2/2
[AB]

Y: Phaser II: 2/4/6, 1/3+/1/1
Range-Based ROF
[GHI][JKL]

Special: Hyperdrive; Marines (2); Teleporters; Cargo (3)

I am using the "Fleet Scale" template for the E4 Light Frigate, which mounts 1 Forward Disruptor, 1 Forward PH-II and 1 Aft PH-II. Seems to fit all needs appropriatrely.

After hemming and hawing back and forth I have decided to use "Normal" Starmada Shields for the purposes of this dry run.

In order to model the variable amount of Phaser Damage at range, I am trying Range-based ROF as well. I was thinking about how Phaser Fire has been shown throughout the ST Universe history (Coherent Beams and short bursts both) and have decided that maybe sustained beams are necessary at long range where it is important to maintain more Beam Coherence than at Short range (Using More Energy) whereas at Short Range you get the "Rapid-Fire" Phaser pulses because not as much energy is lost from Beam Spreading.

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

"the ultimate goal is not to recreate SFB/FC using Starmada game mechanics, but to represent Federation/Klingon ships in Starmada in a manner CONSISTENT with SFB/FC."

That makes me very happy...and really, the alternative is quite silly. If you're that fond of the SFB mechanics, go play SFB (or Fed Commander.)

big_smile

Re: Klingon Armada- Starmada vs FC/SFB rules

falstaffe wrote:

"the ultimate goal is not to recreate SFB/FC using Starmada game mechanics, but to represent Federation/Klingon ships in Starmada in a manner CONSISTENT with SFB/FC."

That makes me very happy...and really, the alternative is quite silly. If you're that fond of the SFB mechanics, go play SFB (or Fed Commander.)
big_smile

Agreed...

While some things can be brought over from SFB with little change, the movement system is something that need not be - too fundamental to change at this point.

While some things - like directional ablative shielding - would be cool to use in Starmada, phased movement is NOT one of them.