Topic: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

This option can be used to simulate starships with very tough defenses indeed, by increasing the maximum shield rating from 5 to 8.

When attacking a starship with a shield rating of 6 or more, re-roll any impact die that comes up 6 (before modifiers), and compare the result to the following:

Roll 1,2 = 6
Roll 3,4 = 7
Roll 5 = 8
Roll 6 = 9

In starship construction, the defensive rating of a starship with a shield rating greater than 5 is computed as if the shield rating were 5. An additional multiplier is then applied:

Shields 6 = x1.5
Shields 7 = x3.0
Shields 8 = x6.0

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

cricket wrote:

This option can be used to simulate starships with very tough defenses indeed, by increasing the maximum shield rating from 5 to 8.

When attacking a starship with a shield rating of 6 or more, re-roll any impact die that comes up 6 (before modifiers), and compare the result to the following:

Roll 1,2 = 6
Roll 3,4 = 7
Roll 5 = 8
Roll 6 = 9

In starship construction, the defensive rating of a starship with a shield rating greater than 5 is computed as if the shield rating were 5. An additional multiplier is then applied:

Shields 6 = x1.5
Shields 7 = x3.0
Shields 8 = x6.0

Don't think it's necessary. It seems bloody tough enough to get through shields rated at 5 unless the shooter has ignores shields (or somesuch) on his guns...in which case you just wasted a whole lot of SUs on nuthin. Maybe for space stations or something. I would rather see the faceted shields rules changed to allow a maximum of Rating 5 in all six facets.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Is a 150% increase in price right for tripling the effectiveness on the jump from shield 5 to shield 6?  The other two multipliers, relative to the first, seem about right (they represent a doubling of effectiveness at each step.)

That first multiplier seems a bit low...

(And:  More conditional rerolls.  Sigh. ) smile

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Ken_Burnside wrote:

Is a 150% increase in price right for tripling the effectiveness on the jump from shield 5 to shield 6?  The other two multipliers, relative to the first, seem about right (they represent a doubling of effectiveness at each step.)

That first multiplier seems a bit low...

At shields 5, 1 in 6 shots will get through, while at shields 6 (as proposed) 1 in 9 shots will get through -- roll a 6 (17%) then a 3 or better (67%).

(And:  More conditional rerolls.  Sigh. ) smile

I loves me my dice! big_smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

The idea of expandes shields has merrit when you consider that weapons can have a modifier of Piercing +3.  Thus, even level eight shields wound be pierced 1/6 th of the time.  BTW, I think that as long as Piercing +3 weapons can exist, the higher level shields are NOT cost effective.
In the games we play at Gaming Glenn's store in S. Fla., we have banned Piercing +3.  We agreed on this because shields become almost useless when they encounter weapons with this weapon ability.  Level 5 shields were penetrated 2/3 of the time, and were no longer cost effective.  My Navy-style ships have some weapons with piercing +2 (The heavy guns) and some that have no piercing, incase someone comes in w/o shields.  These ones are also used for AA fire. :geek:
Here is an example of one of my Tech Zero capital ships:

(700) USS California
 
Hull: 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1     
Engines: 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1     
Screens: 10 10 10 9 9 8 8 8 7 7 6 6 6 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 1 1     
Weapons: 1:X 2:Y 3: 4: 5: 6:
 
X: "14 Inch Particle Cannon"  10/20/30, 1/3+/1/3
Piercing +2; Starship-exclusive
[GHIJK][GHIJK][HIJKL][HIJKL] 
 
Y: "5 Inch Laser Cannon"  10/20/-, 1/3+/1/1
Carronade; Range-Based ROF
[HIJK][HIJK] 
 
Special: Hyperdrive; Armor Plating; Marines (11); Teleporters (8)

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Agreed with my uncle on the effectiveness of high level shielding, although the idea of having level 9 shields is just... evil
1/36 shots gets though, give that thing Regen and enough hull, its not gonna die.
It will be expensive (even by my standards...), but wow....

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Doesn't this sound a bit like 'one-upism'? I can't think of any justification for it. no offense intended.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

I think it's best not to go here. Me likes me dice, too, and me likes more options -- but this one doesn't seem necessary. Of course, I didn't think piercing +3 was necessary either.  :twisted:

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

With all due respect... I'm sure you can find someone to say "It's not really necessary" for most every option in the book. So if you personally would not use shields 6+, that's cool. But I was hoping to get some feedback on the feasibility/playability of the option.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

cricket wrote:

With all due respect... I'm sure you can find someone to say "It's not really necessary" for most every option in the book. So if you personally would not use shields 6+, that's cool. But I was hoping to get some feedback on the feasibility/playability of the option.

Options are well, optional after all. I just don't see where this particular option improves the game. It is the kind of thing that forces people to use things like Piecing +3 and Ignores Shields. The mere possibility that an opponent would build a ship with Level 8 shields would almost obligate you to use one of those options or face a slow and painful death at the hands of his Engines 1 Shields 8 1 gun with a 360 firing arc unfun ship...don't think those people exist, I'm sure you can think of at least 1 if you try. The only recourse for some gamers would be to "ban" this option from their games. Ban may be a harsh word because every group or pair of gamers works out what they will and will be allowed to use when building their ships anyway, but I wouldn't ever want it available except maybe in the context of a scenario with some super advanced that is nigh invulnerable (I can't even type that without thinking of The Tick). I'm sure the points and mechanics of it would work fine though if allowed.
Erik

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Blacklancer99 wrote:

The mere possibility that an opponent would build a ship with Level 8 shields would almost obligate you to use one of those options
...
I'm sure the points and mechanics of it would work fine though if allowed.

These are two mutually-exclusive outcomes. Either the option is balanced against all comers, or having shields 8 on the other side of the table requires piercing +3 on your side.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

cricket wrote:

With all due respect... I'm sure you can find someone to say "It's not really necessary" for most every option in the book. So if you personally would not use shields 6+, that's cool. But I was hoping to get some feedback on the feasibility/playability of the option.

Absolutely right. I guess my opinion, better expressed than I did the firs time, is: This should work rules-wise. Make it an option, although I likely won't use it.  smile

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

cricket wrote:
Blacklancer99 wrote:

The mere possibility that an opponent would build a ship with Level 8 shields would almost obligate you to use one of those options
...
I'm sure the points and mechanics of it would work fine though if allowed.

These are two mutually-exclusive outcomes. Either the option is balanced against all comers, or having shields 8 on the other side of the table requires piercing +3 on your side.

Points wise it will no doubt work because the 8+ shields will take up lots o space that the other guy can load up on. I was just commenting (rather poorly in full ranty mode) on the fact that my opinion is that something like 8+ shields would be a fun-sucker-outer because in my limited amount of mental computing power I can see few ways to overcome them without resorting to uber piercing weapons. I s'pose I could always put a bajillion teeny weapons with starship exclusive and higher IMP ratings and hope some sneak through (probability says there should be some)...but you've obviously never seen how badly I can roll when it comes down to such things! (ask Madseason, he can back me up on this!)
In the end, even 8+ can always be balanced out, but it seems like a slippy "rock-paper-scissors" progression to me, but maybe I'm wrong.
Erik

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Blacklancer99 wrote:

In the end, even 8+ can always be balanced out, but it seems like a slippy "rock-paper-scissors" progression to me, but maybe I'm wrong.

And this is the type of feedback I was looking for. smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

I can see the argument against having it, it would necessitate you to have piercing to deal with these uber ships.
Honestly, all my main weapons use piercing, so I personally would not have the massive problem, but I can see people's point about it drawing out the game.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

If this option of shields of 6, 7, & 8 becomes reality, will their be a parallel option of alocating more than 5 points of screens to a facing?  My BBs use screens.  8-) 
This is one reason I like range 30 weapons.  I can keep hostile ships at middle range, from 15 to 20 hexes away and it is easier to have screens protect my capital ships at that range.
Also my range 20, w/caronade, AA weapons chew up fighters long b4 most of them can launch any attack.  :!:

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

But,  you could use expanded shield ratings when you have lots of ships against some BIG thing.
Borg cube, Doomsday Machine, etc..

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Or a flock of geese... space geese.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Dan:

Just a thought from the peanut gallery... but I think the idea of making a Shield 6, 7, 8, 9, or higher harder to penetrate than a 5 is not needed. If you want to allow Shields of 9... then allow them.

But... make PEN rolls of '6' always penetrate.

Thus, if you have Shields 9 and take damage that reduces the shields by one level, then you have a Shield rating of 8... and despite having taken damage, only 17% of PEN dice are going to penetrate... still. Not until they manage to get your below the 5 mark will your shields lose any effectiveness.

This seems the easiest, and least intrusive way of handling this.

In my opinion.

For those that think that Shields 6+ are being ripped off... consider that Piercing +3 will still need a 6 to penetrate a Shield 8+ ship...

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

I could see the higher rated shields being very useful in representing the tech of extremely advanced races,  the Ancients or Asgard from StarGate or the First Ones from Babylon 5 for example.

As with all optional rules, the players simply need to decide if this option is allowed or not in their games.  Mechanically, I see no problem with it.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

I can see TOS vs TNG ships now....

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

KDLadage wrote:

Dan:

Just a thought from the peanut gallery... but I think the idea of making a Shield 6, 7, 8, 9, or higher harder to penetrate than a 5 is not needed. If you want to allow Shields of 9... then allow them.

But... make PEN rolls of '6' always penetrate.

Thus, if you have Shields 9 and take damage that reduces the shields by one level, then you have a Shield rating of 8... and despite having taken damage, only 17% of PEN dice are going to penetrate... still. Not until they manage to get your below the 5 mark will your shields lose any effectiveness.

This seems the easiest, and least intrusive way of handling this.

In my opinion.

For those that think that Shields 6+ are being ripped off... consider that Piercing +3 will still need a 6 to penetrate a Shield 8+ ship...

I think this is speaks to my main objection, that being added dice rolls. I may house rule this way should this option surface.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

KDLadage wrote:

Dan:
Just a thought from the peanut gallery... but I think the idea of making a Shield 6, 7, 8, 9, or higher harder to penetrate than a 5 is not needed. If you want to allow Shields of 9... then allow them.
But... make PEN rolls of '6' always penetrate.
Thus, if you have Shields 9 and take damage that reduces the shields by one level, then you have a Shield rating of 8... and despite having taken damage, only 17% of PEN dice are going to penetrate... still. Not until they manage to get your below the 5 mark will your shields lose any effectiveness.
This seems the easiest, and least intrusive way of handling this.
In my opinion.
For those that think that Shields 6+ are being ripped off... consider that Piercing +3 will still need a 6 to penetrate a Shield 8+ ship...

I really like this. Its simple and elegant and most importantly, doesn't add another die roll. Not sure how it would cost out though.

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

Is there a revised proposal (with any modifications from suggestions here)?

Re: Expanded Shield Ratings -- proposed rule

KDLadage wrote:

Dan:

Just a thought from the peanut gallery... but I think the idea of making a Shield 6, 7, 8, 9, or higher harder to penetrate than a 5 is not needed. If you want to allow Shields of 9... then allow them.

But... make PEN rolls of '6' always penetrate.

Thus, if you have Shields 9 and take damage that reduces the shields by one level, then you have a Shield rating of 8... and despite having taken damage, only 17% of PEN dice are going to penetrate... still. Not until they manage to get your below the 5 mark will your shields lose any effectiveness.

This seems the easiest, and least intrusive way of handling this.

In my opinion.

For those that think that Shields 6+ are being ripped off... consider that Piercing +3 will still need a 6 to penetrate a Shield 8+ ship...

I like this.