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mj12games.com/forum → Defiance → How fast does Defiance play?
I looked at Starslayer about three years ago and while it looked interesting, I didn't care much for the mechanics where you had to roll for each individual figure in a squad.
I'm assuming that this mechanic is in Defiance, so I have a question. How big a game can you play of Defiance in a 3 to 4 hour period? Are you limited to about a platoon per side, or can it actually handle a company per side?
I looked at Starslayer about three years ago and while it looked interesting, I didn't care much for the mechanics where you had to roll for each individual figure in a squad.
I'm assuming that this mechanic is in Defiance, so I have a question. How big a game can you play of Defiance in a 3 to 4 hour period? Are you limited to about a platoon per side, or can it actually handle a company per side?
Things die pretty quickly in Defiance. Basically, I was able to play a 1000 point game in about 50 minutes and I was teaching someone the game.
One side had Space Marines with about 10 figures (the weapons were expensive) and another had Genestealers with about 30 figures.
Later,
Jonathan
I looked at Starslayer about three years ago and while it looked interesting, I didn't care much for the mechanics where you had to roll for each individual figure in a squad.
I'm assuming that this mechanic is in Defiance, so I have a question. How big a game can you play of Defiance in a 3 to 4 hour period? Are you limited to about a platoon per side, or can it actually handle a company per side?
Its a matter of scope and scale.
Defiance cares about each soldier as an individual weapon system. As such, the game does justice to that with the required detail. Best played from a platoon commander's point of view.
Company commanders aren't interested in the individual soldiers (in a tactical manner of speaking, not necesarily a humanitarian one).
Thus, company-sized fights ( 4 platoons on average per side) are a bit out of Defiance: VG s scope.
It is versatile enough to be player-modified to be faster-playing, and to gloss over some of the individual detail I imagine, making use of genre rules etc, but it'd take some work. Of course, you'd be missing out on what Defiance does best in favour of shoe-horning it into a new role.
JP
Defiance cares about each soldier as an individual weapon system. As such, the game does justice to that with the required detail. Best played from a platoon commander's point of view.
Thanks, JP! That answers my question.
I may look into Defiance later this year, but it's not what I'm looking for right now.
Actually, what I'm looking for doesn't really exist: a sci-fi game that would allow a company level engagement to be fought in a reasonable amount of time. There are WW2 rule sets that manage this, so it should be feasible. Looks like I'm back to modifying a WW2 set, or writing my own.
Justin Crough wrote:Defiance cares about each soldier as an individual weapon system. As such, the game does justice to that with the required detail. Best played from a platoon commander's point of view.
Thanks, JP! That answers my question.
I may look into Defiance later this year, but it's not what I'm looking for right now.
Actually, what I'm looking for doesn't really exist: a sci-fi game that would allow a company level engagement to be fought in a reasonable amount of time. There are WW2 rule sets that manage this, so it should be feasible. Looks like I'm back to modifying a WW2 set, or writing my own.
Allan,
You might wish to check out Assault Corps. It is listed towards the bottom of the MJ12 forum, in a working group.
This game is still in the design process, and is inching towards completion.
It may or may not be what you are looking for, but it is geared specifially for platoon, troop and company sized battle.
Individual vehicles are moved and fought on a 1 to 1 ratio, and infantry are moved and fought in squads/sections.
(Demian, I hope this doesn't seem like i'm hijacking interest from your game and steering it toward AC...)
I didn't care much for the mechanics where you had to roll for each individual figure in a squad
Then (like Justin effectively said before begining to shamelessly plug another game 
) Defiance is not the game you are looking for.
That said, DVG plays quicker than some might think just by looking at the rules. I think there was a review of Starslayer out once that had it sound like it takes most of the day to finish a standard game. It was not true of SS and DVG playes faster than its predecessor did, although not by an order of magnitude of course. Still, it doesn't play a lot slower than Wh40k or VOID 1.1. if you don't load with models taking orders individually. And even if you do, it still goes faster than the likes of Warzone or Urban War (this last is hearsay, tho).
Actually, what I'm looking for doesn't really exist: a sci-fi game that would allow a company level engagement to be fought in a reasonable amount of time
I really do find it odd if there isn't a game that meets your above-the-board requirements (this with the caveat that I'm not really 100% certain how many models would be required to make company level). You have tried asking on TMP and Mini Realms?
Although, I always FEEL like DVG plays faster than 40K. Maybe it's the "one-roll" versus the "several buckets of dice several times" mechanic.....
You might wish to check out Assault Corps. It is listed towards the bottom of the MJ12 forum, in a working group.
I will look into Assault Corps. Thank you!
I really do find it odd if there isn't a game that meets your above-the-board requirements (this with the caveat that I'm not really 100% certain how many models would be required to make company level). You have tried asking on TMP and Mini Realms?
I haven't tried asking on TMP recently, but I have in the past. I've been following sci-fi miniatures rules for a number of years now and haven't seen anything that really fits the bill.
Those of you from the GZG mailing list recognize me as a Stargrunt II player (though one who has become increasingly disgruntled with the game over the last couple of years). SG2 doesn't handle this scale, either. SG2's depth is... a little lacking when playing one platoon versus another platoon. SG2 works best with two platoons on the table, or two platoons on one side and less than two platoons on the other.
Unfortunately, 2 platoons is a bit "odd". It's more than platoon strength, of course, but less than company strength. Once you put a full company on the table in SG2, the game takes 6 to 8 hours to complete. There's also some evidence that SG2's morale system works best with a platoon or so on the table and breaks down with larger numbers of units.
There is precedent for only operating with two platoons. During the Pacific island fighting of WWII, the U.S. Marines tended to fight with two platoons advancing, and the third platoon mopping up the Japanese that were circumvented. Standard doctrine is to fight with two platoons forward, with the second platoon available as a reserve. If the two lead companies get in a tough scrape they can call in the third platoon as a reserve. Rarely is this available in SG2, or any other game out there. The game takes too long to complete once you bring in the third platoon.
I suspect the reason there are few games out there that can handle this scale is because 25mm and 6mm are the two favoured scales for sci-fi (or, technically, 6mm, 25mm, and 28+mm). You can play a company game in 25mm, but you either have lots of figure crowding, or you need a big table, or you need to change the 1:1 soldier to figure relationship (and, perhaps, represent squads with a base of 2 or 3 figures). 6mm will sometimes allow this scale, though it's really intended for battalion and larger games. To effectively play at company level, most folks need 15mm figures. 15mm sci-fi has undergone a renaissance in the last couple of years, but it's still a minority scale for sci-fi. In contrast, it's a very popular scale for all eras of historicals.
Most 25mm games tend to focus on skirmishes or single platoon engagements. 6mm games tend to be in the battalion or higher level. The intermediate tactical levels aren't well represented in science fiction gaming. It should be possible to design such a game. There are a number that handle this scale for World War II gaming. For whatever reason, there is a void in sci-fi games, one that I dearly want filled.
I really do find it odd if there isn't a game that meets your above-the-board requirements (this with the caveat that I'm not really 100% certain how many models would be required to make company level).
I realized I didn't answer this part.
Modern U.S. doctrine has three platoons per company, plus some attached elements. If you assume nine troopers per squad, three squads plus a platoon leader and assistant platoon leader per platoon, you're looking at a minimum of about 90 figures per side, depending on what support elements are available, and assuming each squad is up to full strength.
you're looking at a minimum of about 90 figures per side, depending on what support elements are available, and assuming each squad is up to full strength
If you have a big enough table (6' by 5' or bigger), then Defiance can handle games of about 100 figures per side in about 4 hours.
An alternative would be to use the rules for 15mm scale, and play the same sized battle on a smaller table.
-Demian
I was able to play a 1000 point game in about 50 minutes and I was teaching someone the game.
One side had Space Marines with about 10 figures (the weapons were expensive) and another had Genestealers with about 30 figures.
I'd love to hear any thoughts about how this battle went, as it's probably on the small side of a typical game of Defiance.
If you have a big enough table (6' by 5' or bigger), then Defiance can handle games of about 100 figures per side in about 4 hours.
Well, gosh, that goes against what other folks were saying!
It sounds like Defiance can work for a company game.
How long wound a regular platoon game, with about 30 figures per side, take to play?
It sounds like Defiance can work for a company game.
How long wound a regular platoon game, with about 30 figures per side, take to play?
A couple of hours (1.5-2.5) if both players understand the rules and are being careful about tactics. Less if you houserule an activation-planning time limit or simply charge recklessly into the fray (a "technique" that seems popular with many SF minis gamers).
D:VG rocks! I would say it was better for Platoon vs Platoon skirmishes than for Company vs Company battles, but it can certainly stretch that far, esp. if some of your platoons will be vehicular (3-5 grav tanks are quicker to activate than 20-40 individual grunts). A combined-arms team (2 vehicle platoons + 1 dismount platoon + supporting arms vs a dug-in dismount platoon, say) is both practical and fun to play out. An added bonus: the results of the battle will be amazingly realistic.
JMO, YMMV, etc.
--Rich Spainhour
Hmmm, limiting Elites and taking a goodly amount of vehicles WOULD streamline things pretty well.
It sounds like Defiance can work for a company game.
How long wound a regular platoon game, with about 30 figures per side, take to play?
I'm going to slightly amend what I quoted to take into account Rich and Sam's input.
100 figures is feasible within 4 hours if you play with fewer elite troops and also indirect fire. If you want all the bells and whistles, especially if you prefer to play with very few vehicles, I'd say the range of feasible (again, in my opin ion, this is about 4 hours of actual game time) is about 70-80 figures per side.
I would echo that an "average" game, i.e. a platoon per side, typically takes just under two hours.
-Demian
Well, gosh, that goes against what other folks were saying!
You note tho that I didn't really take up on the per model speed issue as I wasn't sure how many models per side you were talking. Also, since you hadn't already found a game that would work for the company level it did seem unlikely that DVG would cut it for you where the likes of Dirtside, Wh40k and VOID apparently have failed.
Anyhow. Given the fact that it would be around 100 models per side (the points values involved would be... interesting), I still do think a DVG game with those numbers in 4 hours may be a bit of stretch. I believe it's doable (since Demian sayz so 
), but you'd need to do some carefull pruning. Rich and Demian had some good suggestion on how to work that. One option not yet mentioned you don't want to try is to use next to no terrain (@ some Wh40k games I've heard about).
I'd set the feasible limit for a no holds barred game (Advanced level, Elites, Heroes, Vehicles, what have you) at between 10 and 15 models per side per hour. That's been my experience so far, although I must admit I don't have all that many DVG games under my belt. Doesn't seem to catch on in our group.
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