Topic: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

Hi guys.  Awhile back I proposed a relatively simple campaign system:
http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1855

The concept was to allow players to develop their fleet's weapons, ships and tactics based on what their enemies in a developing galactic neighborhood did.

Then I discovered the old Avalon Hill game, "Stellar Conquest".  This is an extremely simple, bare bones strategic space conquest game but it might work for Starmada.  The basic concept is that a number of civilizations reach space flight and begin colonizing their local star group.  Each star is given a specific color, and when a star is explored, a card is flipped that gives the characteristics of the star system (basically the number of production points it provides).  Each game turn, ships are given orders if they're at a star system and can start moving towards another system (the game forces the ships to keep moving to this system until they reach it, unless the race's technology advances far enough).  Combat occurs only when two opposing fleets occupy the same star system (not just any hex).  Every 4th turn, production is tallied applied either towards building new ships/planetary defenses or technology (in game terms, this is usually strategic types of technology.. ships that can change direction in mid journey, distance allowed to move from controlled locations, strategic movement points per turn, etc).  If I recall, production points produced by a system can not be combined with other systems when constructing something (like a ship), but can be combined if used for researching technology.

So my concept would be to use Stellar Conquest as a campaign system for Starmada.  The Production points could map directly to CR values (likely needing some multiplier or divisor depending on how many points are likely a turn).  Additionally, each weapon created to use on a ship would need to be researched using technology points.  The idea would be to allow a certain number of technology points to each side at the start to be able to design the race's "starting weapons" and a certain number of production points to actually make the ships.

After the start of the game, any weapon researched that has attributes WORSE or the same than an existing weapon and that has exactly the same traits, would have a multiplier of 1.0 to design.  A weapon with any entirely new traits for the race has a multiplier of 2.0 for each new trait, and these traits have to start at the 'weakest' level for the given trait.  Any trait which has been researched previously, can be added at the next 'level' for a multiplier of 1.5.  A weapon which increases an attribute gets a multiplier of 1.5 for each attribute increased by 1 level (or decreased, effectively, whatever makes the weapon better).  All of these multipliers are MULTIPLIED together and then the final multiplier is applied to the cost of the weapon.

Exactly one of each new class of ship (the prototype) can be built per 'production' turn.  These new classes can include any new weapons researched in the current production turn.  These weapons will cost their normal amount (no multipliers - the multipliers are just applied against the research cost of the weapon, not actually building them).  The production cost of a prototype is multiplied by 2.0.  In the next production turn, the cost of the new ship class is normal (ie, multiplier of 1.0).

I'll need to play with things a bit, for instance having the production turn every 4 turns might create too sparse a number of ships.  Will also have to figure out how to set up research for actual Tech Levels, and systems on ships outside of weapons.  But it looks as though it has quite a bit of promise.

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

I love this idea... please keep us informed. wink

(On a weird tangent, Stellar Conquest was integral in the development of Starmada, as the point system developed out of my attempts to figure out whether it was worth it to buy lots of escorts or smaller numbers of dreadnoughts...)

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

I would also note that Stellar Conquest + Starmada would be ideal with a referee, though I've been thinking about 'detection' and 'dummy' fleets for straight 2-4 player games.  IF anyone would like to test the concept, I might be up for being the referee of a test session, say within the next month or two.

There are few main 'sticking points' to mesh the two, beyond determining how production points should map to Starmada's point systems:

1. How to handle planets.  Starmada doesn't have a ground assault element, but perhaps simply creating a 'ground assault' module to install on Starmada ships would work.  Then use the Stellar Conquest ground combat system (I don't recall what it is off the top of my head smile ) if any of the ground assault ships survive the battle.

2. Refits... This adds an additional wrench into the ship development, prototype concepts mentioned previously.  Adding or replacing some systems should be relatively straightforward.  For weapons I tend to think that any weapon type could be replaced by any other type as long as its space requirement is within a certain percentage and the arcs are the same.  Again, a prototype of the refit would have to be made first.  The normal production cost to refit an already constructed ship would probably be something like cost of the unit being installed * 2.0. 

As a note, I have a vague idea that something like the B10's development history in Star Fleet Battles could be easily simulated here... A huge ship might not be finished in one production turn, so it could be refitted while it's being built, upping the cost further until finally someone says 'enough already, finish the thing and get it into battle... This might be too complicated to deal with at first though, as the specific items on the ship would have to be indicated rather than just... 'Ship costs 200 production points to fully build, I can only put in 50 a turn...' which is much simpler. smile )

3. How to handle various types of non-weapon tech improvements/systems.

4. Min/Maxing... In other words, given a certain overall tech level and a starting pool of production points to research and build an initial fleet (tradeoffs here between more ships or higher starting technology), is there an obvious set of weapon traits, ship types that everyone will gravitate towards.  An alternative would be for each player to pick a trait, system type, etc as their 'base technology' which would then be unavailable to anyone else at the start of the game (but could be researched later).

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

Re: ship/planet/troop combat

Borrowing from an old computer game (PLATO empire, it's on the wikipedia): a player controlled ship could bombard a planet while in orbit, killing some of the ground forces but taking damage. After several bombings and damage taking the ship would break orbit, spend time repairing, then go back to the planet and resume bombing.  It was time consuming, but you could whittle the planet's troops down to a minimal value ("remaining troops are too well dug in to be destroyed"); and hope you weren't attacked by another player's ship in the meantime (or have friendly ships guarding you). Then you can drop your own troops (there were limitations on how many you can carry) with an exchange rate of 1:1 and take over the planet.

I've written up some rules to do the same for a campaign, as yet untested, with changes to adapt to Starmada.  In short, a ship can bombard a planet at range 1 for one round of combat per strategic movement/combat phase if no enemy ships present, firing every weapon (arcs don't matter in this case). Each damage point destroys 1 troop.  The planet's defensive systems fire back like an Anti-fighter battery, the number of AFBs depend on the number of troops on the planet at the start of the bombardment ( for now 1 per 500 troops, may be too few AFBs, but...); at EVERY ship that bombards the planet that strategic phase (cuts down on deciding who they should fire at.. trying to keep this simple and quick).  The AFBs probably won't really hurt ships much, but repair is not that easy to do, and ships may be damaged from recent ship combat.  Testing would be the only way to adjust the defensive fire so it's hurtful but not extremely so.  I have a limit on how many troops can be on a planet (2500 max for good production planets, 1000 max for not-so good prodution planets).

Next phase would be transferring troops to the planet to do ground combat, exchange range a simple 1:1.

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

I remember ADB did a Campaign Designer's Handbook for SFB a few years back.  It included different tech trees (phasers, bigger ships, photons, drones etc) with each race having stuff on the various weapon trees that they had already developed (so the Feds got some proximity photons, the Kzinit got the first drone speed increase etc).
You could adapt this, depending on how complex you want to get, so you research gradually longer ranged weapons, higher impact, more accurate etc with weapon traits being offshoots of these.  You could then have another tree for fighters/strikers/seekers (maybe you have to "invent" seekers before you can develop strikers), another for engine size, and another for ship size.
That would allow one race to put their research into small fast ships with short range but high impact/damage weapons, while another goes for big slow ships with long ranged but low-power guns and carrier capacity.

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

I'd love to run a campaign based on this system.

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

Stellar Conquest had no ground combat system. Personally I like the map, but would use the VBAM advanced system generation and economy. That makes it simple to use the conversion and even provides a ground combat system. The only thing that would need to be created would be the movement system. For that I would more or less stick with the SC rules.
I may have to give this a try! big_smile

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

Would anyone be willing to collaborate on a campaign game system?  I have most of the concepts worked out, map, spaceship design guidelines, ground combat, fleet movement, etc.  I'm just looking for someone else to bounce ideas back and forth with, help finish writing the rules, and especially offering constructive criticism.  IF the system looks playable when we're done, we'd post it for free with both of our names listed as the authors.

Kyle

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

For ground combat, why not make a 'flotilla' with no engines and no hyperdrive and go with that using the technology that the player has already learned.  I'd look at VBAM/Starmada crossover for ideas!

-Bren

Re: Stellar Conquest as a Campaign system for Starmada?

Man, I can't believe I didn't think of that before. My group is looking to do an epic campaign and we've been trying to devise a planetary invasion system that does justice to Starmada. I'll bet with minimal tinkering flotillas using the basic movement rules would work great as ground forces. They could represent differently sized formations easily because each "ship" would represent a small unit of the given type. Your stack of one unit type on a given hex would then act like a flotilla of the appropriate size. The added advantage would be that players could design their own standard army units to go with their fleet.

Another thing we've been trying out is treating most of the possible rules as technologies, not just traits and specials. It lends a lot of character to player's fleets if some use screens while others use faceted shields, or some can pivot but not sideslip. Tricky to weight them right though.