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mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Carrier Armada (SFB)
Based on a thread over at starfleetgames.com, I'm wondering if someone knowledgeable on the subject can give me a rundown of how fighters work in SFB?
As well as SFB, I might suggest having a look at the Hydran Stinger rules from Federation Commander, as well as the prototype Borders of Madness rules for certain fighters from a recent (I forget which) Captain's Log.
(Even without separate carriers, FC has plenty of Stingers that the Hydrans use - be it the Stinger-2s with Phaser-Gs in the Main Era, or the Phaser-3-armed Stinger-1s from the Middle Years Hydran ships in Briefing #2.)
In both games, fighters are treated as individual units - akin to how shuttles are currently in Klingon/Romulan Armada. They have certain weapons they can fire more or less continuously (usually their phasers) while some have heavy weapons that have to be recharged/reloaded on board a carrier (in the case of the Hydrans, the fusion beams on their Stingers).
In SFB, there are more details as to what types of fighters are around (there are many) and how different types of carriers or escorts can service and operate fighters. FC does not go into such details, simply referring to the Energy Points needed to reload Stingers (I don't recall off of the top of my head how they describe re-loading drones in the BoM rules) and going from there. Plus, there are things like dogfight ratings in SFB, which aren't a factor in FC.
One idea - and it's only an idea, mind - is to have a look at the layout set for the Romulan and Kzinti carrier box sets. Each includes miniatures representing a carrier, two of its escorts, and their associated fighters. (The Romulan fighters are divided between superiority and assault fighters - I think, thought I might be wrong - while Kzinti fighter minis all look the same.) If boxes like those get done later for other empires, they could similarly provide a handy means of tying into any future Starmada module.
Oh, and when it comes to other empires' fighters, The Gorns use Federation-designed fighters (with Skolean pilots, since a Gorn can't fly a fighter) while the Lyrans, LDR and Seltorians use the same fighter design as the Klingons (and in the case of the Selts, with mercenary pilots flying them). The Vudar used to fly Klingon fighters before developing their own designs, too. I can't remember off-hand if the WYN Cluster can use Kzinti (or Klingon) fighter designs, though.
(Note: I am unfamiliar with Federation Commander, so I can't comment on it's rules).
Another factor in SFB Carrier operations is the Aegis system (Limited and Full). In SFB it gives equipped ships the ability to fire its Phasers and ADDs at a small (drone or fighter/shuttle) target, see if the target is destroyed, and if not fire at it again (two firings for Limited, for firings for Full). This doesn't increase the rate of fire, more like keeps the ship from wasting weapons unnecessarily.
Escorts are another factor in SFB Carrier operations. No carrier (unless specifically allowed), operated without escorts. These were ships (usually Frigate and Destroyer class, and later War Cruisers and Destroyers) equipped with the Aegis system and were tasked with defending the carrier. They almost always had no heavy weapons.
In regards to fighters themselves, all races operated regular and heavy (two hanger boxes) fighters. Most raced did not bother with Heavy fighters, as Fast Patrol Ships (PF) were invented, and were used by them. Only the Federation used Heavy Fighters (not having used PFs), and usually used them the same way other races used PFs.
I have some thoughts on how to convert them if you're interested...
-Christopher
FC: Hydran Attack has rules for using Aegis, albeit as a 'Borders of Madness' rule not applicable to vanilla Federation Commander. (It was put there to support the escort ships from Booster #92, but technically you can still use those ships and just not let them use Aegis).
In that game, you can use an Aegis-equipped ship to shoot at seeking weapons which have impacted against a friendly ship (with phasers if within four hexes, or with anti-drones within two). There is no distinction between Limited and Full Aegis the way there is in SFB.
I don't think aegis would have to be translated in Starmada.
Otherwise, what I never like about fighters in SFB/FC is that you can shoot at them as easily as if they were ships (no penalties). They mostly acted as very small ships with hit points and not as nimble fighters.
I feel Starmada give us a better feeling of fighters.
Another point. In SFB/FC, some fighters have only a phaser (I suppose that those with the phaser-3 would have the same stats as a regular fighter), but some others have one-shot weapons (missiles, fusion, whatever). I don't know how to resolve this but maybe note (with a marker, maybe) that they have such a one-shot weapon.
Marc
Another point. In SFB/FC, some fighters have only a phaser (I suppose that those with the phaser-3 would have the same stats as a regular fighter), but some others have one-shot weapons (missiles, fusion, whatever). I don't know how to resolve this but maybe note (with a marker, maybe) that they have such a one-shot weapon.
Not familiar with SFB at all, but the one-shots sound like something you could do with strikers or dual-mode fighters with one mode being a striker.
Not familiar with SFB at all, but the one-shots sound like something you could do with strikers or dual-mode fighters with one mode being a striker.
Except that a striker is eliminated after use, which fighters shouldn't be, and they usually carry another, multi-shot, weapons.
Marc
For dual-mode fighters, one mode can be a striker and the other mode a standard fighter. The striker is a single shot that is marked off after use, the regular fighter stays on the board and can be used again.
See rule F.9 Dual-Mode Fighters.
This option may only be used for fighter flights--however, one of the two modes may be as a striker (but not a seeker: see option F.6: Strikers). In this case, the striker mode may be used only once, after which only the fighter mode is available.
A couple of examples.
For a flight of Fed F-14's with a Phaser Gatling and a pair of Heavy drones, you might design it like this.
F-14, Size: 6, Speed: 12, Defense: 0, Mode 1 (Fighter/5+/ROF-3) Mode 2 (Striker/4+/ROF-2/DMG-2) Capacity 99
An A-10 with 2 Phaser-3's (1 front, 1 rear) and Photon Torpedo could be done like this.
A-10,Size: 6, Speed: 8, Defense: 2, Mode 1 (Fighter/5+/ROF-2) Mode 2 (Striker/4+/Bomber/DMG-3) Capacity 80
A fighter without an internal phaser would be just a striker.
A-6, Size: 6, Speed: 8, Defense: 1, (Striker/4+/ROF-2) Capacity 34
I like the dual-role fighter, but according to the rule, a striker is immediately removed from the board after attacking.
Marc
Except for dual-modes...
In this case (dual mode), the striker mode may be used only once, after which only the fighter mode is available.
Rules Annex p28
My experience is from 20+ years ago....
Fighters had 6-20 'Hit Points' IIRC, no shields (though some later/fan rules added something sort of like shields) - so any damage comes straight off the total. I seem to remember something happening if the fighter took half damage, but that might be something from another game system I'm mis-remembering. The first fighters just had a Phaser 3 or two and a single shot heavy weapon. Later fighters had more heavy weapons, with some replacing the heavy weapon with drones(missiles). Fighters had a fixed top speed above which you could not go, but some had 'warp booster packs' that doubled top speed (you could go slower). Ships brought fighters aboard to re-arm heavy weapons (or drones), but Fighters had basically unlimited in-game range. SWACs were electronic warfare versions, but were really just shuttles that had 'scout' functions like a ship (and maybe other special functions?).
No fighters used Energy Allocation, which was the primary difference other than not having shields. This was a BIG deal in SFB, where energy allocation was sort of a linch-pin in deciding how you would fight the ship.
Hydrans were initially the only race that had fighters, and the Stingers had Gatling Phasers, with Fusion Beams as a heavy weapon and later Hellbores when they became available.
Later, fighters from other races were added.....
Federation and Kzinti used 'one shot a turn' phaser 3's, with drones as heavy weapons. The Federation A-10(?) had a short range photon torpedo.
Klingons and Lyrans used phaser 3's and either drones or disruptors.
Gorns and Romulans used phaser 3's and Type F Plasma Torpedoes? Type D? Gorns may have had drones.
I seem to remember at least one fighter that had a phaser 2.
==================================================
Later, the Interceptors and Fast Patrol ships were added, both used Energy Allocation, albeit MUCH simpler than ships. More ship-centric systems were available on Interceptors and PF's:
Interceptors had front and rear shields, longer range (irrelevant in SFB, but used in Federation and Empire, IIRC), and could recharge their own heavy weapons if you were patient. About the same amount of system boxes as a large fighter.
PF's (Fast Patrol Ships or Pseudofighters 
) merely had ship-like shields, more power, more hull - well, more evrything compared to Interceptors. They were essentially small ships.
One other suggestion I might make could be to start with the fighters which currently have Starline minis to represent them, such as the Fed F-18 (or Gorn G-18), Kzinti TAAS, and so forth. It might be a good way to facilitate on-table play with units that are already available in metal form...
(Speaking of minis, the Romulan carrier box has eight superiority and eight assault fighters.)
I think that most of the mentioned types could be made with the existing fighter/Dual Mode traits.
Seems the only thing missing is an "Unarmed" trait for a Dual Mode fighter carrying single or ROF-x stingers only.
Paul
The thing is that the drones carried by fighters have the same range as those carried by ships - this allows your fighters to fire from beyond the defensive weapons of the target ship and then either retire to rearm or follow the drones in given the target the choice of what to fire at (and often launching a second waves of drones at point blank range once the ship has used its defensive weapons). This means that you have a fight of fighters launching a flight of strikers.
I would suggest that you need a "RNG-2" or "RNG-3" option for fighters to allow for the use of stand-off weapons outside the range of the close defense weapons (anti-fighter batteries) of ships.
Could Unarmed be done by taking both Bomber and Interceptor?
RNG-2 and -3 would be mighty convenient...
The thing is that the drones carried by fighters have the same range as those carried by ships - this allows your fighters to fire from beyond the defensive weapons of the target ship and then either retire to rearm or follow the drones in given the target the choice of what to fire at (and often launching a second waves of drones at point blank range once the ship has used its defensive weapons). This means that you have a fight of fighters launching a flight of strikers.
I think this can be easily done. For example the F-14 that I posted above, could activate as a striker 12 hexes from it's target, launch the striker attack but remain in the hex it started in. Not exactly by the rules but a reasonable fudge.
I would suggest that you need a "RNG-2" or "RNG-3" option for fighters to allow for the use of stand-off weapons outside the range of the close defense weapons (anti-fighter batteries) of ships.
+1
I think that most of the mentioned types could be made with the existing fighter/Dual Mode traits.
Seems the only thing missing is an "Unarmed" trait for a Dual Mode fighter carrying single or ROF-x stingers only.
Paul
With out adding some sort of rules for rearming fighters, how is a dual mode Unarmed/Striker fighter any different in game play from the A-6 Striker that I posted above? Once it fires it's striker it has no further impact on the game.
Of course if we add rearming rules, then absolutely we need an unarmed trait for fighters like the A-6.
OldnGrey wrote:I think that most of the mentioned types could be made with the existing fighter/Dual Mode traits.
Seems the only thing missing is an "Unarmed" trait for a Dual Mode fighter carrying single or ROF-x stingers only.
Paul
With out adding some sort of rules for rearming fighters, how is a dual mode Unarmed/Striker fighter any different in game play from the A-6 Striker that I posted above? Once it fires it's striker it has no further impact on the game.
Of course if we add rearming rules, then absolutely we need an unarmed trait for fighters like the A-6.
If there is a VBAM Starmada AE edition we may see rearming rules. B&K attack boats have limited ammunition and have to return to their Carrier/Tender when it runs out. The only thing that Jay and i did not discuss was how many turns it would take to reload.
I imagine that fighters having a single striker attack only would be treated the same way.
Paul
I'm pretty sure that the earlier comment about being able to fire on fighters with no penalties is incorrect. I forget the range break, but at a certain range fighters get small target modifiers: +2 ECM to direct fire weapons targeted against them (+1 to the die roll essentially) and at an even greater range +4 ECM (+2 to the die roll). I don't know the range breaks off the top of my head.
As far as carrier escorts and aegis goes, just give them a few more weapons with "Anti-fighter' characteristics.
Here's what I think I remember of fighters, not having used them too much:
1. In general, once they've used weapons other than phasers, they have to return to their ship to reload. The phasers are still fully functional though, I believe.
2. When they take 2/3 of their damage, they lose half their speed and have only a Phaser 3 (forward arc?) left as weaponry.
3. They're usually slower than the starships (they can move about half as fast as a ship's max speed), unless they use warp booster packs which double their speed but also doubles the damage they take.
s me. Note that what I said was from foggy
I'm pretty sure that the earlier comment about being able to fire on fighters with no penalties is incorrect. I forget the range break, but at a certain range fighters get small target modifiers: +2 ECM to direct fire weapons targeted against them (+1 to the die roll essentially) and at an even greater range +4 ECM (+2 to the die roll). I don't know the range breaks off the top of my head.
It seems that was me. Note that my comments came from old and foggy souvenirs. I don't remember fighter benefiting from ECM as being small targets, but, what I remember is that ships could negate that by using ECCM, something that they can't do in Starmada, unless they already have the anti-fighter or Fire control traits.
1. In general, once they've used weapons other than phasers, they have to return to their ship to reload. The phasers are still fully functional though, I believe.
In a Starmada game, it seems there is not enough 'real' time to resupply fighters. Also, my games are so quick that you don't have 'game' time as well to resupply. Yesterday, we did two games, using 2400 in all (a breakout scenario played twice), and each ended very quicly, after 4 to 6 turns.
2. When they take 2/3 of their damage, they lose half their speed and have only a Phaser 3 (forward arc?) left as weaponry.
Irrelevant in Starmada.
3. They're usually slower than the starships (they can move about half as fast as a ship's max speed), unless they use warp booster packs which double their speed but also doubles the damage they take.
Starmada can't compare with FC when talking about speed. In FC, ships can move the speed they want with relatively low restrictions, but are limited to a fixed value, either the general max sped, either their energy. In Starmada, you can move at any speed, but their will have big restrictions. Fighters, on the other hand, have a fixed value, in FC or in Starmada. I don't know what will be decided, but I feel that iSFU fighters should be treated normally in Starmada.
Marc
My comments were mainly designed to answer the initial request for information on fighter operations. Yes, most of the specific ways of doing things will not be seen in Starmada, but so far Cricket has shown a very good ability to still give the feel of the SFB weapons, because he took the way that they worked in SFB and translated it to Starmada. Plasma for instance looks completely counterintuitive on first looking at the way they're done in Starmada, and yet work very nicely. So, I felt it important to give the basic characteristics of fighters in SFB, as was asked, and let Cricket determine how to use that, especially since a lot of people were answering based on earlier editions of the game and with obvious errors in their comments. I assumed that the request for information based on how fighters operated wanted accurate information, so attempted to provide it.
Specific notes:
Yes, ships can use ECCM to counter the fighter small target modifier. That reduces their energy to do other things, so the small target modifier is not just 'a wash', even if the ships counter it. And since fighter flights can be lent ECM (by an EW fighter, and their carrier) they can then 'counter' the ECCM on firing ships. Yes, all of that would be abstracted into Starmada, but it's still potentially important in balancing them.
Reloading, I agree on. Probably unlikely to reload in Starmada, but it wouldn't be impossible to have occur. Therefore, again, I just provided how it was done in SFB.
Taking damage: Yup, probably irrelevant. But an important part of how they operate in SFB, so figured I'd provide the info. Cricket's shown he can use items in SFB that appear to be irrelevant or difficult to do in Starmada, quite elegantly.
Speed: Well, they can still be compared to some extent because you know that usually ships won't be going faster than the speed at which they couldn't turn. This is, of course, different for each ship in Starmada, but seems to break down to about 5-7 on average, which could be used for comparison. So, one way of dealing with fighters and booster packs is set speeds around 3-4 (with the normal maneuverability - in other words, change direction any time, no facing). And on any turn they can turn on their packs, but if they take damage that turn they take twice as much as they would have.
s me. Note that what I said was from foggy
gambler wrote:I'm pretty sure that the earlier comment about being able to fire on fighters with no penalties is incorrect. I forget the range break, but at a certain range fighters get small target modifiers: +2 ECM to direct fire weapons targeted against them (+1 to the die roll essentially) and at an even greater range +4 ECM (+2 to the die roll). I don't know the range breaks off the top of my head.
It seems that was me. Note that my comments came from old and foggy souvenirs. I don't remember fighter benefiting from ECM as being small targets, but, what I remember is that ships could negate that by using ECCM, something that they can't do in Starmada, unless they already have the anti-fighter or Fire control traits.
1. In general, once they've used weapons other than phasers, they have to return to their ship to reload. The phasers are still fully functional though, I believe.
In a Starmada game, it seems there is not enough 'real' time to resupply fighters. Also, my games are so quick that you don't have 'game' time as well to resupply. Yesterday, we did two games, using 2400 in all (a breakout scenario played twice), and each ended very quicly, after 4 to 6 turns.
2. When they take 2/3 of their damage, they lose half their speed and have only a Phaser 3 (forward arc?) left as weaponry.
Irrelevant in Starmada.
3. They're usually slower than the starships (they can move about half as fast as a ship's max speed), unless they use warp booster packs which double their speed but also doubles the damage they take.
Starmada can't compare with FC when talking about speed. In FC, ships can move the speed they want with relatively low restrictions, but are limited to a fixed value, either the general max sped, either their energy. In Starmada, you can move at any speed, but their will have big restrictions. Fighters, on the other hand, have a fixed value, in FC or in Starmada. I don't know what will be decided, but I feel that iSFU fighters should be treated normally in Starmada.
Marc
My comments were mainly designed to answer the initial request for information on fighter operations.
OK, BTW, KA and RA are based on FC, ans unless mistaken , EW is not used in FC. In the end, I suppose fighters will be treated the same as usual.
Taking damage: Yup, probably irrelevant. But an important part of how they operate in SFB, so figured I'd provide the info. Cricket's shown he can use items in SFB that appear to be irrelevant or difficult to do in Starmada, quite elegantly.
That could be useful if, for example, a fighter with a lot of hit point is awarded a defense bigger than 0.
So, one way of dealing with fighters and booster packs is set speeds around 3-4 (with the normal maneuverability - in other words, change direction any time, no facing). And on any turn they can turn on their packs, but if they take damage that turn they take twice as much as they would have.
I wouldn't use fighter that can be easily dodged by ships, just because they are so slow. BTW, who would want to pilot a fighter that is simulated this way?
It reminds me of a story during the Bataille de France during WWII, where french pilots of MS 406 were usually unable to follow HE 111 
Marc
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