Topic: Flotillas and Carriers

Not sure if this has been brought up before (didn't find anything in a search), but I'm wondering how much it would break balance with the current system allowing Carrier Capacity to carry Flotillas.

My first thought would be allowing Carrier Capacity to store a Flotilla if it's Capacity was equal to the SU's that flotilla used (i.e. 160 for a 4 ship flotilla maxed at the 40 su per ship).

If that does break CRAT/SU balance, has anyone else toyed around with this to make it balanced with current "vanilla" Carrier Cap?

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

pickledteak wrote:

Not sure if this has been brought up before (didn't find anything in a search), but I'm wondering how much it would break balance with the current system allowing Carrier Capacity to carry Flotillas.

My first thought would be allowing Carrier Capacity to store a Flotilla if it's Capacity was equal to the SU's that flotilla used (i.e. 160 for a 4 ship flotilla maxed at the 40 su per ship).

If that does break CRAT/SU balance, has anyone else toyed around with this to make it balanced with current "vanilla" Carrier Cap?

The only thing that I can see would be in points...since fighters aren't "pointed" the carrier includes the cost in itself. Flotilla ships do have a point cost so, you would have to either have a house rule that omitted that when including them on carriers, or you are basically getting overcharged for their services. However, some might let that stand anyway figuring that it is the price that must be paid for bringing along the bigger ships.
Anyway, that's just my thought.
Erik

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

Blacklancer99 wrote:

The only thing that I can see would be in points...since fighters aren't "pointed" the carrier includes the cost in itself. Flotilla ships do have a point cost so, you would have to either have a house rule that omitted that when including them on carriers, or you are basically getting overcharged for their services. However, some might let that stand anyway figuring that it is the price that must be paid for bringing along the bigger ships.
Anyway, that's just my thought.
Erik

By points I assume you mean CRAT? In that case, how far off if one Flotilla with 4 ships from 3 standard flights of fighters in terms of effectiveness.

If I was better at math I'd say a Multiplier being applied would probably fix it, but sadly I'm nearly the opposite of math wiz.

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

A stopgap measure could be to use a new sort of auxiliary service to model the space requirement to carry flotillas

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

Such as having an Aux called Tender, that would maybe need to have as many SU's used as the Flotilla takes + or - some percentage? That's a good idea, I didn't think of using auxiliary systems to cover that.

That would also partially eliminate the fiddly bits of using un balancing fighters one way or the other. I wonder if using Fighters Launch and Recovery rules would be possible without bending the system too much away from vanilla. Or a modified version.

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

pickledteak wrote:

Such as having an Aux called Tender, that would maybe need to have as many SU's used as the Flotilla takes + or - some percentage? That's a good idea, I didn't think of using auxiliary systems to cover that.

This would be the best option, IMHO.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

Seems like a good time to ask, has anyone (I know a couple of people have) had a look at the "give it a try" in the shipyard guide or the Aracnonoi booklet with regards to tenders?
I think they work but very few people have commented one way or the other.

Paul

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

OldnGrey wrote:

Seems like a good time to ask, has anyone (I know a couple of people have) had a look at the "give it a try" in the shipyard guide or the Aracnonoi booklet with regards to tenders?
I think they work but very few people have commented one way or the other.

Paul

I just took a look at it. Very nice, I love the layout, very professional.

With those Tender rules how would you implement carrying a Flotilla? I love the idea of being able to ferry other starships with it, but would like to be able to use vanilla Flotillas in that role. Almost like carrying "super" fighters I guess. Of PFs for LACs whichever term works best.

The only thing I'm not sure about, is allowing externally carried ships to use their weapons. I feel that could become a bit munchkin.

I'm going to play tonight specifically to try out some Flotilla Tender options, and this is one I will be trying now. Thanks!

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

pickledteak wrote:
OldnGrey wrote:

Seems like a good time to ask, has anyone (I know a couple of people have) had a look at the "give it a try" in the shipyard guide or the Aracnonoi booklet with regards to tenders?
I think they work but very few people have commented one way or the other.

Paul

I just took a look at it. Very nice, I love the layout, very professional.

With those Tender rules how would you implement carrying a Flotilla? I love the idea of being able to ferry other starships with it, but would like to be able to use vanilla Flotillas in that role. Almost like carrying "super" fighters I guess. Of PFs for LACs whichever term works best.

The only thing I'm not sure about, is allowing externally carried ships to use their weapons. I feel that could become a bit munchkin.

I'm going to play tonight specifically to try out some Flotilla Tender options, and this is one I will be trying now. Thanks!

1) Thank You.
2) When converting Attack Boats to Starmada AE, (from "Boltian and Kuissian") which are small ships less than hull size 1, I set the cost to the tender at 25% of the total SU carried. Although I did not have flotillas in mind, the individual ships fit the size requirement.
3) This would depend on the setting, in the Boltian and Kuissian universe they would be carried in very large open hangers, in which case weapons could not be used. Carried externally they could use weapons but it would not be wise for ships to stay with the tender (the part about a carried ship being destroyed taking the tender with it.) It is different with joined ships, this is for the likes of Fireball XL5 (missiles are in Fireball junior - the front portion) right up to the Enterprise and such ships. Although the re designed Enterprise (and "A") was supposed to channel phaser power through the engines so it would have no weapons if the saucer was to seperate, bet the writer never thought of that, then again maybe it was only possible on paper and someone glued the saucer on. lol
Paul

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

OldnGrey wrote:

1) Thank You.
2) When converting Attack Boats to Starmada AE, (from "Boltian and Kuissian") which are small ships less than hull size 1, I set the cost to the tender at 25% of the total SU carried. Although I did not have flotillas in mind, the individual ships fit the size requirement.
3) This would depend on the setting, in the Boltian and Kuissian universe they would be carried in very large open hangers, in which case weapons could not be used. Carried externally they could use weapons but it would not be wise for ships to stay with the tender (the part about a carried ship being destroyed taking the tender with it.) It is different with joined ships, this is for the likes of Fireball XL5 (missiles are in Fireball junior - the front portion) right up to the Enterprise and such ships. Although the re designed Enterprise (and "A") was supposed to channel phaser power through the engines so it would have no weapons if the saucer was to seperate, bet the writer never thought of that, then again maybe it was only possible on paper and someone glued the saucer on. lol
Paul

So in that case, sample V1 Destroyer Flotilla (6 ships; 186su) would cost 47 su for a ship to Tender?

Would this affect CRAT at all, or would you factor the 55 CRAT from the Flotilla in addition to the carrying vessel? As opposed to Carriers in which flights are calculated as part of the ships CRAT?

Ex. 100 pt Tender carrying 2 V1 DD Flotillas coming to a total of 194pts for the battle.

I'm liking that idea a lot. I'm going to try this tonight as stated.

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

Yes, the cost to the tender would be 47SU. Round up fractions.

Yes, unlike carriers, the CRAT is calculated separately for the ships carried (or Flotilla in this case) and the tender.

Note, for anyone using Attack Boats in VBAM, their VBAM stats are also separate to the tender.

Paul

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

I am going to add a bit about flotillas to the next version of the shipyard guide.

Been going over tenders in the guide and perhaps a couple of changes may be needed.
1) Effect of carried ship engine rating.
Change: If external, then the higher of the two (or more) engine ratings is used, so long as the ship with the
higher rating is at least hull size 2 and one third the SU of the ship that it is attached to.

2) If a carried ship is destroyed, the tender and any other ship/flotilla still attached take 1D6 Hull damage per Hull size of the destroyed ship.
In the case of flotilla ships destroyed while carried it is 1D6 hull damage per destroyed ship.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
Paul

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

That may help balance them.  Previously I was skeptical, as the external carrying rules seemed a bit broken, but quantifying explosion damage and restricting shield sharing may help.  On the other hand, it also seems a promising system for splitting ships into components; you could have a shield generator module, an engines module, and a couple of weapons modules on a base ship that is really just some hull and tender capacity.  This would also allow for versatile, 'hardpoint' style design.

Re: Flotillas and Carriers

In the VBAM/Starmada book: The Stars Divided: Terran Civil War, ships carried internally by a tender took a Capacity of their Hull size + 50% of their Hull size. It is a minor point, that needs to be settled by an arbitrary decision, whether this should have an additional cost in Space Units of 50% or 25%.

    In the Starmada Compedium, there was a rule for towing vessels that should work just as well for composite vessels made of multiple Hulls. Multiply the Engine Value of each module by the Hull Size of that module, add the results for all modules with Engines, and divide by the sum of the Hull Sizes of all modules (including those without engines). This would give you the Engine Value for the Composite. Alternatively, you could consider the modules as components contained in a Hull whose size is large enough to contain them, sum the Space Unit cost for the Engines in all modules, and divide this (rounding down) by the Space Unit cost for a Engine for the containing Hull. This would also give a useful Engine Value for the composite.

      In any case, Hold Capacity on a Tender should affect only the Space Unit cost. The Combat Rating  of the contents should have no effect on the Combat Rating of the Tender (which, if it is unarmed, might well be zero).

      Re: Flotillas and Carriers

      JohnRobert wrote:

      In the VBAM/Starmada book: The Stars Divided: Terran Civil War, ships carried internally by a tender took a Capacity of their Hull size + 50% of their Hull size. It is a minor point, that needs to be settled by an arbitrary decision, whether this should have an additional cost in Space Units of 50% or 25%.

      The 25% came about when designing "Attack Boats" and their tender from the B&K universe for Starmada AE. The Attack Boats being docked in a big empty space.
      The Starmada X book - The Stars divided, for "Attack Boats" (or a pair of Super Heavy fighters) in general, is 150SU for every hull size 1 Attack Boat carried or 150%. I included this in the shipyard equipment for anyone wishing to use it.
      Perhaps Dan would care to comment?

      JohnRobert wrote:

      In the Starmada Compedium, there was a rule for towing vessels that should work just as well for composite vessels made of multiple Hulls. Multiply the Engine Value of each module by the Hull Size of that module, add the results for all modules with Engines, and divide by the sum of the Hull Sizes of all modules (including those without engines). This would give you the Engine Value for the Composite. Alternatively, you could consider the modules as components contained in a Hull whose size is large enough to contain them, sum the Space Unit cost for the Engines in all modules, and divide this (rounding down) by the Space Unit cost for a Engine for the containing Hull. This would also give a useful Engine Value for the composite.

      This was dropped and changed for Starmada X where towing is one or more ships towing one ship, the available movement points being.
      Round down towing ship/s size x movement points divided by the sum of towing and towed ships sizes.

      JohnRobert wrote:

      In any case, Hold Capacity on a Tender should affect only the Space Unit cost. The Combat Rating  of the contents should have no effect on the Combat Rating of the Tender (which, if it is unarmed, might well be zero).

      In The Stars Divided book, having the Tender equipment does effect the CRAT, in my "Give it a Go" section there is no change to the tenders CRAT.
      I often have to remind myself that the Compendium, Starmada X and Starmada AE are different games with the same theme.
      Paul

      Re: Flotillas and Carriers

      I played with the Tenders carrying Flotillas last weekend. I thought it worked well, just using the 25% su capacity requirement mentioned earlier in this thread. I used the Launch & Recovery rules with them to prevent spamming. Played three games with them and will definitely consider using them in a campaign.

      It was in these 3 games, that I also found out that I don't like allowing the expanded accuracy, rof, imp, and dmg. My friend built a 10 hull ship with one weapon (RNG 18, ROF 6, ACC 2+, IMP 2, DMG 3) which made it to where my flotillas couldn't even get close. I found that ship to be way over powered despite only have 1 3 arc weapon.

      Re: Flotillas and Carriers

      Yeah, a lot of groups restrict maximum range especially.  I didn't even know there was an option for RoF 6...  but yeah, 2+ accuracy is a beast.

      Re: Flotillas and Carriers

      Counter it with RNG 18 ACC 2+ Inverted Range Modifiers, and add counter measures to your ships.  You are then hitting on 2+ and he is looking for 4+.

      I have found that for just about every weapon you can come up with there is a way to counter it, or you just use the same weapon and it is then just a case of who gets the best dice rolls.

      Re: Flotillas and Carriers

      You're right about ROF 6. I didn't check that before letting him chose it. I just set him up on one of the ship builders and let him go. So with ROF 6 coupled with 2+ ACC it probably was a bit over powered for it's combat rating (204). Next time I'll let him know to stick within the base vanilla Starmada rules for ACC and ROF.

      I could have easily countered his ship by just having 1 flight of fighters, as his ship had Starship-Exclusive on it's weapon. However, I did build my ship within the base construction rules, with the added Tender ability for Flotillas instead of fighters. Flotillas died in 2 turns before even getting into range. Next time countermeasures and stealth will need to be looked into.