• Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Topic: DMG, IMP and double damage

Just to be sure I didn't overlook something:

- Why IMP and DMG are two different stats? They could have been merged at the beginning, no?
Suppose the following gun: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP3 DMG 2. Unless I missed something, you would have exactly the same result with the following values: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP 6 (DMG would have no raison d'etre this way). This wouldn't change the attack routine, but I fail to understand why distinguish IMP and DMG.

- Why the special trait 'double damage SU cost is so expensive?
Suppose the follwing gun: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+, DMG 2 (fire arcs AB). Its SU cost is 24.
If you replace the DLG 2 by DMG1 and add the double damage trait, you end up with an SU cost of 27.
So, in which way the double damage trait is more powerful than simple double the DMG value?

Marc

  • Registered: 2009-08-03
  • Posts: 245

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

Part 1:

madpax wrote:

Just to be sure I didn't overlook something:

- Why IMP and DMG are two different stats? They could have been merged at the beginning, no?
Suppose the following gun: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP3 DMG 2. Unless I missed something, you would have exactly the same result with the following values: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP 6 (DMG would have no raison d'etre this way). This wouldn't change the attack routine, but I fail to understand why distinguish IMP and DMG.

My understanding is that the balance between impact and damage is one of gambling against the enemy's shields.  If you're feeling lucky and like a big payoff, you skimp on IMP and put your SU in damage.  Then, when you hit, you have one shot to beat their shields, and if you make it, you really make it.  If you like reliability more than the thrill of winning big, you put your SU in IMP, and when you hit, you have a lot of chances to make it through shields, but they're each worth less.  Basically, the existence of DMG as a stat lets shipbuilders put more of their statistical eggs in one basket.  It's kinda like fire-linked, but later in the shooting phase.

Part 2:

madpax wrote:

Just to be sure I didn't overlook something:
- Why the special trait 'double damage SU cost is so expensive?
Suppose the follwing gun: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+, DMG 2 (fire arcs AB). Its SU cost is 24.
If you replace the DLG 2 by DMG1 and add the double damage trait, you end up with an SU cost of 27.
So, in which way the double damage trait is more powerful than simple double the DMG value?

Marc

Well...  I can tell you where it comes in in the formulas (in weapon SU cost, you multiply by (DMG+.6).  Thus, changing from DMG 1 to DMG 2 only increases weapon cost by a factor of 2.6/1.6 = 13/8 = 1.625).  Don't know why it is thus from a game design perspective; hopefully Cricket will chime in.  On the other hand, Double Damage does let you effectively exceed the cap of 5 IMP 5 DMG if you want to build a real superweapon, so it does have its uses.

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

madpax wrote:

Just to be sure I didn't overlook something:

- Why IMP and DMG are two different stats? They could have been merged at the beginning, no?
Suppose the following gun: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP3 DMG 2. Unless I missed something, you would have exactly the same result with the following values: RNG 9 ROF 1 ACC 4+ IMP 6 (DMG would have no raison d'etre this way). This wouldn't change the attack routine, but I fail to understand why distinguish IMP and DMG.

Marc

They are two different things.
IMP or Impact roll, determines if the hit is blocked by the targets shields/screens/armor.
DMG (when the hit beats the shields etc) is the number of dice rolled on the damage chart to determine the type of damage inflicted.
This is clear on page 23 of the core rules.
Paul

  • Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

OldnGrey wrote:

They are two different things.
IMP or Impact roll, determines if the hit is blocked by the targets shields/screens/armor.
DMG (when the hit beats the shields etc) is the number of dice rolled on the damage chart to determine the type of damage inflicted.
This is clear on page 23 of the core rules.
Paul

I know that. I was just wondering why both exist. In essence, you could remove the DMG value, you would have essentially the same effect. Aside Nomad's explanation, which seems a good one, I'm unable to see the reason for having those two traits.
Note that a weapon having, for example, IMP 2 and DMG 1 costs (a bit) more than the same one having IMP 1 and DMG 2.

Marc

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

madpax wrote:

I know that. I was just wondering why both exist. In essence, you could remove the DMG value, you would have essentially the same effect. Aside Nomad's explanation, which seems a good one, I'm unable to see the reason for having those two traits.

Nomad's is the correct explanation.

Note that a weapon having, for example, IMP 2 and DMG 1 costs (a bit) more than the same one having IMP 1 and DMG 2.

Yes. The weapon stats are weighted more towards the "front" (i.e. ROF costs more than IMP costs more than DMG) because against smaller/weaker targets, excess IMP/DMG will sometimes be wasted as "blow-through".

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2010-09-25
  • Posts: 63

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

I'm wondering if this is what he means... (and correct me if I ass-u-me wrong or if my explanation is NOT accurate.)

Say you have a weapon...

Zapmaster ROF 1, ACC 4+, IMP 3, DAM 1

This would mean that, if the weapon hit with a roll of 4+, you would roll 3 dice to see if that one weapon pierced the enemy's shields... giving you 3 chances to do that. If any of the weapon's 3 dice penetrate the shields the weapon only makes 1 DAM roll (regardless of how many of the IMP dice beat the shield rating).

Ex: I shoot one Zapmaster. It hits. I roll the 3 IMP against the target's shield rating of 2. I get a 1,3,6. Even though I got 2 successes, the 3 & 6, I only roll 1 DAM dice.

Is that what you meant?

  • Registered: 2005-03-29
  • Posts: 859

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

No, the weapon will make 2 DAM rolls as 2 Impact dice exceeded the shields. If it was a DMG 2 weapon, four damage dice would be rolled if two Impact dice exceeded the shields

  • Registered: 2009-10-09
  • Posts: 3

Re: DMG, IMP and double damage

For a weapon with IMP 3, DMG 1 against a target with 3 shields you'll get 3 rolls to penetrate the shields.  Each roll that penetrates will do 1 damage.

So, you have a:
* 12.5% chance to do 0 damage
* 37.5% chance to do 1 damage
* 37.5% chance to do 2 damage
* 12.5% chance to do 3 damage

So, overall, you've got an 82.5% chance of doing at least 1 point of damage.

For the weapon with IMP 1, DMG 3, you've got a 50% chance to do no damage at all and a 50% chance to do 3. 

As for the costing, consider this:

You have to hit in order to roll Impact
You have to succeed at Impact in order to roll Damage.
Therefore, Impact is reliant on Accuracy and Damage is reliant on both Impact and Accuracy.  So, you get a hierarchy of Accuracy > Impact > Damage.