Topic: Yes, size matters!

I'm talking about the hull size, of course! :oops:
As a friend told me yesterday, after a first (and last) game of starmada for him (and in fact, I noticed that since my first game), small ships are proportionnaly not interesting at all to field.
For example, buying four very small ships is less interesting than fielding one bigger ship the same price as those. The big ships is more resilient, have more weapons (if those are the same as the smaller ships), and a better shield value.
In fact, small ships are so fragile and lacking of punch that I usually take only one of them if I don't know what to do with those points.
Usually, my fleet is made of many big ships and one small ship. Exactly the opposite as what you would have of a comptemporary wet fleet. And after all, space fleet are inspired by wet fleet.
So, two questions:
- Do you have the same feeling (small ships are just easy targets and are not really worth the expense)?
- If so, how to remedy that problem?
I have one or two ideas about the latter, like adding a new, 'size' modifier (-1 if firing at hull size 5 or less, +1 if firing ar hull size 14 or more, that's just an idea).

Marc

Re: Yes, size matters!

The uses of small ships are limited.

In my last game I commanded 2 heavy cruisers and 2 destroyers. The destroyers were basically fly eggs... easy to crack open and cook. I used the destroyers to take out some fighter squadrons and draw fire away from my 2 cruisers long enough for one of them to win the day.

Bigger is better... and in space there's a lot of room for size.

I think there should not be an upper limit on "Hull".

Re: Yes, size matters!

If you are going to restrict the ships to the same weapons irrespective of their sizes then I agree that larger ships are generally better since they can carry more weapons.

However, if the different ships carry different weapons and are designed to different requirements, then the outcome can be very different.

I acknowledge in advance that these designs are at the extremes of what you can do with the system

Ship One - "The Death Star" (2055)               
Hull: 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1               
Engines: [TL0] 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1               
Shields: [TL0] 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1               
               
Weapons: [TL0] 1:[V] 2:[] 3:[] 4:[] 5:[] 6:[]               
Battery V: Ship Killer, 10/20/30, 1/2+/6/6, Extra Hull Damage; Ignores Shields; Starship Exclusive
[G]                

Special: [TL0] Overthrusters; Carrier (150)               
Fighters: [TL0]               
3xFighter, 6/10/0, (Fighter/5+)               


Ship Two - "The Stinger" (42)               
Hull: 1               
Engines: [TL0] 6                                            
Shields: [TL0] 0                                            
               
Weapons: [TL0] 1:[4V] 2:[4V] 3:[4V] 4:[4V] 5:[4V] 6:[4V]               
Battery V: Sting, 1/2/-, 1/2+/1/1, Carronade; Ignores Shields
[AB] [AB] [AB] [AB]                
               
Special: [TL0] Stealth; Carrier (12)               
Fighters: [TL0]               
1xDart, 6/6/0, (Seeker/5+)               


Ship One will destroy any ship it hits but it only has one weapon so it can only destroy one ship per turn.  I have given it Overthrusters to compensate for the low engine rating and limited weapon arc, but you could change this for Armour Plating, Fire Control or Countermeasures.  It has a few fighters as it had a bit of space left after putting in the super-gun - they at least give you a bit more flexibility.

Ship Two makes use of knowing what Ship One can do in order to design a countermeasure to it.  Ship One ignores shields, so don't bother with them.  Ship One has a very long range weapon, so use stealth to reduce the effectiveness of that.  Ship One has a high shield rating, so select a weapon that ignores that.  The seekers are almost an afterthought but may be useful against the fighters, or you could take countermeasures or point defense instead.

You can get almost 49 Ship Two's for the cost of a single Ship One, more if you tweak the options a bit.  As Ship One can only take out a single target each turn quite a few Ship Two's will survive to range 1 where they will gradually nibble away at the "supership".  In fact I suspect that the real issue for Ship One is not taking Hull hits but taking that one weapon hit that will leave it as nothing more than a giant target (18 successful hits should do that I beleve which with four shots per attacker won't take long to do).

I know that these are rather extreme and purpose designed ships (although I have seen similar suggested as serious vessels in the past) but it shows what you can do within the rules to bring down those giant ships.

Re: Yes, size matters!

I actually believe smaller ships have an inherent advantage to larger ships... But I have no data to back that up.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Yes, size matters!

cricket wrote:

I actually believe smaller ships have an inherent advantage to larger ships... But I have no data to back that up.

Which kind of advantage?

Marc

Re: Yes, size matters!

RobinStirzaker wrote:

I know that these are rather extreme and purpose designed ships (although I have seen similar suggested as serious vessels in the past) but it shows what you can do within the rules to bring down those giant ships.

You are right, it's a bit extreme, and I'm sorry, I should have said that I usually play with existing designs (Imperial, Starfire designs I did which does not include extreme designs.
Also, what about small budget (between 1000 and 2000 points)?
I rarely play with really big ships, most of the time, it will be with small to medium ships.

Marc

Re: Yes, size matters!

madpax wrote:

Which kind of advantage?

I mean that, for example, in a battle of one 100-point ship and ten 10-point ships, the 10-point ships have a more than even chance of winning.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Yes, size matters!

cricket wrote:
madpax wrote:

Which kind of advantage?

I mean that, for example, in a battle of one 100-point ship and ten 10-point ships, the 10-point ships have a more than even chance of winning.

Yes, you are surely right.

Marc

Re: Yes, size matters!

I actually believe smaller ships have an inherent advantage to larger ships... But I have no data to back that up.

--- Maybe it's because you can't stomp on them all?  lol

If a dreadnought went up against a huge multiple flight of fighters, where the combat values are equal... I'd put my money on the fighters.  8-)

Re: Yes, size matters!

As I said, those examples are a bit extreme, and that's not the battle I fought. I play with more 'balanced' fleets, where frigates are eaten alive by heavy cruisers, and point for point, cruisers are more powerful and resilient than frigate.
I've read examples where a horde of small ships can overcome a really big one, but currently, I don't play with budget big enough to field just one big (DN-like) ship.

Marc

Re: Yes, size matters!

I've found mostly big ships and a few little ones to be most effective.