• Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Topic: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Sometimes, S:AE can feel a bit like a free-for-all…a deep space donnybrook. While this can be, and is fun, I've been playing around with some ideas to try and give a reason to have escorts/squadrons/battlegroups beyond “I still have 125 points to round out my force.”  Some of these things we've discussed on the forum before, some build on the ideas of others, and some come from other games but seem to work for S:AE. I've tried to put together with a few things that would work without changing any other rules, and I was wondering what others might think, so here goes.

1.    When shooting through a hex containing a starship to attack a different target there is a -1 penalty to hit for each hex containing a starship that the shot must pass through to reach the intended target.
The idea here is that having a ship in between a target and an attacker not so much blocks line of sight, but “interferes” with targeting, whether that be with EW/decoys/etc…

2.    In the Orders Phase ships may “loan” Fire Control or Countermeasures special equipment to another vessel for the remainder of the turn.  To “loan” either special equipment, the ship doing the loaning must have at least Science(100). A ship may loan this special equipment to additional vessels for each additional 200 SUs of Science that it has. The vessel receiving the effects of the equipment must be no farther from the loaning vessel than 2+the Equipment Tech Level of the loaning vessel (minimum 1 hex). A vessel may only receive the benefits of Fire Control or Countermeasures once, and additional “loans” or existing equipment have no additional effect. Ships “loaning” Special Equipment no longer receive the benefits of that equipment themselves.
That's right, combat scouts rear their ugly head  smile

3.     In the Orders Phase a vessel may “loan” Point Defense Special Equipment to another vessel for the remainder of the turn. To do so the loaning vessel must be in a hex adjacent to the ship receiving the benefit of the Special Equipment.  Only One vessel may loan Point Defense to a given ship in a turn. Ships “loaning” Special Equipment no longer receive the benefits of that equipment themselves.
A bodyguard/Goalkeeper for the big ships!

4.    Opportunity Fire Ballistic & Fighter Defense: If a Flight (Fighters/Seekers/Strikers/Boarding Pods/Breachers) moves into a hex adjacent to a starship without attacking (on its way to another target or just moving) the vessel may engage the flight with Opportunity fire. All to-hit rolls made by the ship conducting Opportunity Fire suffer a -1 Penalty. Only Anti-Fighter Batteries or Drones (if using KA Drone Point Defense rules) may conduct Opportunity Fire. Anti-Fighter Batteries firing at this time must be marked as fired and may not fire in the Combat Phase.
There is nothing more frustrating than watching flights of small craft simply zip past your escorts to pummel your dreadnought.  :evil:

5.    During the Orders Phase a vessel may “loan” Shields or Screens (but not Armor) to another vessel located in an adjacent hex. The ship receiving the benefit of the loan must not have any other Shields or Screens active. The loaning vessel can shift any amount of Shield/Screen power to the other vessel, however, the benefiting vessel only gets the protection of ½ of the total shifted, rounded down. For example a ship with 4 Levels of Shields sends 2 Shield levels (leaving itself at Level 2 Shields) to an adjacent vessel, which is now considered to have Level 1 Shields for the remainder of the turn. Likewise a ship with 16 screens loans 8, retains 8 for itself, while the recipient gains 4 screens for its protection.
There plenty of examples in Sci-Fi where one ship extends protection to another this way.

Anyway, those are the ideas. Crush them if you like, but remember that if you do, I will probably cry...and I think we can all agree that nobody wants to see that.
Cheers,
Erik

  • Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Blacklancer99 wrote:

While this can be, and is fun, I've been playing around with some ideas to try and give a reason to have escorts/squadrons/battlegroups beyond “I still have 125 points to round out my force.”

Funny, that's what I noted in  my games (I don't use self-made fleets and thus no "extreme" designs).

1.    When shooting through a hex containing a starship to attack a different target there is a -1 penalty to hit for each hex containing a starship that the shot must pass through to reach the intended target.
The idea here is that having a ship in between a target and an attacker not so much blocks line of sight, but “interferes” with targeting, whether that be with EW/decoys/etc…

Two things:
- Space is very big and such a thing should not be automatic. Such a thing exists in ACTA but is not automatic.
- I don't think that every ship should count. Maybe only one should be enough.

That's right, combat scouts rear their ugly head  smile

I've heard something like that somewhere... big_smile

4.
...
There is nothing more frustrating than watching flights of small craft simply zip past your escorts to pummel your dreadnought.  :evil:

Why not...

5.   
...
There plenty of examples in Sci-Fi where one ship extends protection to another this way.

Sci-fi movies/series are not what I could call 'realistic'. They usually show space battles as if ships were one or two klicks apart, fighters moving in atmosphere, etc.
But, combined with the first mod, it could be powerful. Technically speaking, it's difficult to use in a game. Does this ship use energy shields? Are they powerful enough to protect another ship? Are they able to move close enough to protect each other and thus avoid collision? etc.

Marc

  • Registered: 2010-12-25
  • Posts: 30

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

I've been thinking about a few similar ideas in terms of escorts (as a general concept - a cruiser can be an escort).  One thought I had was to allow weapons with the Anti-fighter characteristic (which I gather is considered weak for the multiplier) to shoot in the fighter phase.  These weapons can interupt movement of any fighter flight to fire on it, resolving the effects immediately before the fighter enters a new hex.  A given ship may only fire at a flight once for each hex entered (i.e. if the flight starts 2 hexes away, you'll only get one chance to fire an Anti-Fighter weapon at it before it is in the attack hex).  The use of Anti-Fighter in the fighter phases would be like Dual Mode - players must decide during the orders phase if weapons with this ability would use it and if so, they would not be able to fire in the normal firing phase.  Obviously, each weapon would only fire once in each turn.

I'm considering this specifically for KA/RA, where the Phaser-3, supposedly a point defense weapon against seeking weapons, is less useful in that role than the ships main Phasers.

The limitation on firing one weapon per ship for each hex would create a real place for escorts, as each ship would then be able to fire one Anti-Fighter weapon for each hex the flight entered.

Brian

  • Registered: 2009-08-03
  • Posts: 245

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Just to bring up an alternate viewpoint, what if your squadron / escort system depended primarily on stacking multiple units in a single hex?  For example:

    [*]Attacks are targeted at individual hexes, rather than individual ships or flights
    [*]If an attack against a hex containing multiple targets (ships, flights, etc) hits, then the defender chooses which unit takes the hit from among the valid targets for the attack (and starship-exclusive rears its ugly head...  this would also mean that you can't intercept attacks with Stealth'd units under some circumstances.  Evasive Action might also get tricky)
    [*]If the attacker used Directed Fire in an attack against a hex with multiple targets, the attack may either re-roll damage dice OR the attacker may choose which unit in the target hex is hit.
    [*]Make a small area effect trait that hits everything in exactly one hex, and watch the fun.  Also, increase the price of normal area effect.

Alternatively, rather than having the defender choose, make it an evenly-distributed random roll to see which target in the hex is hit (and let Directed Fire re-roll that die rather than attacker choose).  This would promote putting escorts with your capitals, but also wouldn't introduce the "So I put my Shields 0 ship with the single G arc catastrophic extra hull damage area effect weapon in the same hex as my shields 5 armor-plated ship with no guns..."  It does cause the problem of "I don't have a d7", but that could be mitigated with a stacking limit of (say) 3, since 1, 2, & 3 all divide 6, so you could get a uniform distribution off of a single d6.

  • Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

One 'weapon' that could be improved is the antifighter batteries. Currently, I feel they are not only inefficient but also not realistic IMHO.
As those are weapons specifically designed to fight fighters, they should be at least a bit more efficient.
Using ideas already given here why not:
- Divide AFB in 'units' of 6 (or less). For example, a ship with 15 AFB will have two units of 6 and a unit of 3.
- Every time a fighter squadron moves to attack a ship, that ship may use a unit of AFB to fire at the fire before those fighters make their attack.
- As usual, AFB may only shoot once per turn. They can fire at ships the usual way.

Note that I feel that fighters are very powerful BUT when I play with my usual budget (1000-1500), I have hard times to field just a carrier as they are usually very expensive (too bad).

Marc

  • Registered: 2010-07-08
  • Posts: 44

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

I like the idea of having fleet management play a role, but I'm not sure if "forcing" good tactics is the way to go.

I think anti fighter batteries are perhaps the easiest (and most realistic) change you can do without creating a load of new conditionals to remember. I like using combat interception for AFB's, like was mentioned somewhere on the forums a while back.

The lending options are cool, but I think it would warrant separate equipment and a dedicated ship to handle it as to not complicate the rules for all ships. (Yay Scouts!)

I think the inherent penalty to firing at a fleet of ships, is target selection. I could target the giant capital ship to try to disable her by turn 3, but in doing so her lighter units have been freed up to maneuver and attack nearly unmolested.

Realistically two fleets engaging each other without fighter flights on either side really don't need a fleet setup to protect each other. As is the case in our modern wet navy. Cruisers and Destroyers tagging along with an Aircraft Carrier are there to protect the carrier from aircraft and missiles, without those threats they lose their some of their effectiveness as the carrier can engage other ships as well if not better than any of our cruiser/DDG's can. There are countermeasure systems built into ships that can help other vessels, but for the most part the are built and deployed for self protection versus aircraft/missile threats. Phalanxs and Sea Sparrows being the exception to that, which in this case represents AFB's.

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Glad to have generated some discussion  smile

The ideas that I wrote up came mostly from looking at doing setting conversions. There are lots of settings where there are things like scouts and close escorts that I don't think are very well represented in S:AE, as much as I love the actual gameplay of the system.

- Space is very big and such a thing should not be automatic. Such a thing exists in ACTA but is not automatic.
- I don't think that every ship should count. Maybe only one should be enough.

I never played ACTA, but I did buy it once upon a time so I will have to look at how it is handled there. I think you are probably right that the ability should not stack, like the "loaning" of specials.

Sci-fi movies/series are not what I could call 'realistic'. They usually show space battles as if ships were one or two klicks apart, fighters moving in atmosphere, etc.

Who said anything about realism?  wink  I almost always default back on what you see or read in science fiction for what should happen in a game like Starmada. After all, doesn't it promise something like any ship, any setting, any universe on the tin?  smile

Technically speaking, it's difficult to use in a game. Does this ship use energy shields? Are they powerful enough to protect another ship? Are they able to move close enough to protect each other and thus avoid collision? etc.

I kindof envisioned this as a desperate, last ditch chance at survival...something that would only be done in the most dire times of need. Difficult to accomplish successfully to protect a battered consort.  In short, just the kind of thing to be expected from any ship named Enterprise  wink

One thought I had was to allow weapons with the Anti-fighter characteristic (which I gather is considered weak for the multiplier) to shoot in the fighter phase. These weapons can interupt movement of any fighter flight to fire on it, resolving the effects immediately before the fighter enters a new hex. A given ship may only fire at a flight once for each hex entered (i.e. if the flight starts 2 hexes away, you'll only get one chance to fire an Anti-Fighter weapon at it before it is in the attack hex). The use of Anti-Fighter in the fighter phases would be like Dual Mode - players must decide during the orders phase if weapons with this ability would use it and if so, they would not be able to fire in the normal firing phase. Obviously, each weapon would only fire once in each turn.

I pretty much agree with that 100%

This would promote putting escorts with your capitals, but also wouldn't introduce the "So I put my Shields 0 ship with the single G arc catastrophic extra hull damage area effect weapon in the same hex as my shields 5 armor-plated ship with no guns..."

Agreed...the single greatest problem with any system with a construction system is the min/maxing of designs. I personally hate it, generally don't find games based in designing first and playing second fun. So, that being said, all of my goofy ideas are aimed at better representing fleets that have been featured in other products or literature, not "one-off" games. I totally agree that it would be easy to "munchkin" some of these types of things. I like your idea of stacking squadrons, and would be an interesting steeping off point for playing a Starmada type game one level "up" the command chain, treating squadrons like ships are currently done in many respects.

Good stuff.
Cheers,
Erik

  • Registered: 2005-06-08
  • Posts: 760

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Nomad wrote:

Alternatively, rather than having the defender choose, make it an evenly-distributed random roll to see which target in the hex is hit (and let Directed Fire re-roll that die rather than attacker choose).  This would promote putting escorts with your capitals, but also wouldn't introduce the "So I put my Shields 0 ship with the single G arc catastrophic extra hull damage area effect weapon in the same hex as my shields 5 armor-plated ship with no guns..."  It does cause the problem of "I don't have a d7", but that could be mitigated with a stacking limit of (say) 3, since 1, 2, & 3 all divide 6, so you could get a uniform distribution off of a single d6.

I think you lost me here, when does the defender choose which target is hit?
Using Area Effect, a separate to-hit roll is made against every target in the seven hexes covered. Very handy if someone tends to keep ships close. smile

Paul

  • Registered: 2009-08-03
  • Posts: 245

Re: Squadrons & Escort ideas

Blacklancer99 wrote:

I like your idea of stacking squadrons, and would be an interesting steeping off point for playing a Starmada type game one level "up" the command chain, treating squadrons like ships are currently done in many respects.

Yeah, I agree about moving up the chain a bit.  VBAM's CSCR is closer, but no sense of range.  I'm really looking for something that could handle Master of Orion-style task force-level combat.  I think part of the issue with upscaling is that Starmada ships just have too much data associated with each of them - you've got three damage tracks and the weapon damage chart, four attributes per weapon (plus traits and arcs), and special equipment and fighters to boot.  You just can't have a battle with 100 ships because there'd be too much paperwork involved.

<tangent = "reducing data per ship">
You could conceivably reduce the number of damage tracks necessary by putting everything at risk of Iron Stars critical hits (example: ship with hull 4, shields 2, engines 4, and 4 weapons is reduced to 2 hull remaining, triggering critical hit.  For each point of engines, each point of shields, and each weapon, roll a critical hit save.  However, when you would take a shield, weapon, or engine hit, nothing happens.  Only hull damage is tracked, and all other damage stems from hull loss.  I have no idea how this would affect pricing on things, but it would reduce the space used for damage tracks.  On further reflection, it would also simulate Battlefleet Gothic's crippling rules rather nicely).
</tangent>

Anyways, the notion was kind of to produce simpler ships so you could field (and stack) lots of them without going insane.  Downscaling's also an option, I guess - if your frigates are flotillas, your cruisers hull 3, and dreadnoughts hull 6, you have a lot less space to play around with and might end up with simpler ships.  Flotillas seem to have a lot of promise along these lines (reduced complexity by eliminating the damage tracks, mainly...  say, what is this wheel of which you speak?  Reinvented, you say?), but they just don't do well for heavy, durable ships.  I guess you could build flotillas of heavier ships and just ignore the SU limits in order to get serious shields and weapons, and then build small squadrons that way.  You still run into mixing issues, though (ie, can't mix my cruiser flotilla and my frigate flotilla).

OldnGrey wrote:

I think you lost me here, when does the defender choose which target is hit?

I was referencing the second point of the alternate pseudo-rules I suggested in my last post for squadrons by stacking.  The first notion was that if you stacked multiple units in a hex, and somebody shot at it, you got to choose which of your units in that hex got hit.  But that was actually kind of a broken idea (probably), so random target selection seemed a better solution.

And yeah, Area Effect might need to be more expensive if stacking actually had benefits...