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mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Fighter carried Missiles
Greetings, I'm looking on feedback on rules for adding strikers/seekers to a starmada fighter. Mainly for KA/RA as most SFU (at least most of the useful ones) use drones.
Any ideas on how to add fighters to fighters so to speak??
Matt
Greetings, I'm looking on feedback on rules for adding strikers/seekers to a starmada fighter. Mainly for KA/RA as most SFU (at least most of the useful ones) use drones.
Any ideas on how to add fighters to fighters so to speak??
Matt
I've played around with a few things like this and instead of using dual mode fighters I have just straight up added the SU requirement of the seekers to the SU requirement of the fighter, but treating the results like a dual mode fighter for shooting purposes. I haven't done Strikers, but I think that they would just make you fighters too bloated. If you wanted to maintain the starship-scale weapons of SFU fighters, you could build them as flotillas instead of flights, but they will still have to be scaled down a bit to fit the SU constraints. Personally I have no problem scaling them back to fighter level though, as most of the top end fighters just seem grossly over-powered to me.
Cheers,
Erik
Yeah, wouldn't even want to think about doing an F-111, A-20 or the bombers, but then I've managed to avoid them in SFB for the same reason.
The idea of just adding the cost of the drones to the fighter, and using Dual Mode for the firing seems like the simplest way to get the closest to the source material, though I'm a bit stumped on dealing with the Ph-3 & heavy weapons of some of the later direct fire fighters (like the Fed A-10 with 2 Ph-3 and a Photon, or Klingon Z-D with Ph-3 and Disruptor)
Matt
I think that the fighters with heavy weapons are actually quite easy to do as the ranges for those weapons are quite a lot shorter than the ones of ships.
This then allows you to do them as a dual mode fighter with, for example, Fighter/5+ to represent the phaser and Striker/5+/Bomber, DMG-2 to represent the disruptor.
The drones and plasmas are much harder to do.
I did get the impression that the only fighter in Fed Commander was the Hydran Stinger which should be a relatively easy conversion (only phaser and fusion beam).
I believe you're correct about the Stinger (don't have & never played FC) my main interest is to open up some of the more interesting SFB scenarios now that I've run out of SFB opponents (Starmada is much easier to convince people to try, a lot less intimidating, and a much quicker learning curve than SFB).
Of course, thats a perfect way of dealing with the heavy weapons fighters, though how would you handle the limited charges for the heavy weapons? ie the single shot photons, or disruptors? Can fighters use the ammunition trait?
Matt
I believe you're correct about the Stinger (don't have & never played FC) my main interest is to open up some of the more interesting SFB scenarios now that I've run out of SFB opponents (Starmada is much easier to convince people to try, a lot less intimidating, and a much quicker learning curve than SFB).
Of course, thats a perfect way of dealing with the heavy weapons fighters, though how would you handle the limited charges for the heavy weapons? ie the single shot photons, or disruptors? Can fighters use the ammunition trait?
Matt
The second mode of a dual mode fighter can be set as "Striker" and is essentially a one shot weapon. If the fighter carries a couple of torps, you could just use INC ROF to simulate more than one firing. After the "Striker" weapon is used, you are left with the base fighter weapon for the remainder of the game.
Cheers,
Erik
Gotta love dual-mode "kamikaze" Fighter Strikers...
OK, but by my understanding that would mean both shots from the 2 shot disruptors go off on one turn? so you can't fire it once, then again on a later turn?
Just trying to wrap my head around it.
Not completely how i was thinking of it, but pdc (pretty darn close)
Matt
OK, but by my understanding that would mean both shots from the 2 shot disruptors go off on one turn? so you can't fire it once, then again on a later turn?
Just trying to wrap my head around it.
Not completely how i was thinking of it, but pdc (pretty darn close)
Matt
Your understanding is correct. It is an imperfect solution if you are looking to have a 1:1 replication of the SFB capabilities, but remember that Starmada has an element of "abstraction" built into it anyway. Your fighter is going to fire off its payload in one turn, but that is a minor difference compared to the fact that ships don't have to manage their energy like they do in SFB. I like o think of it as scaling the original game down to Starmada. Things that used to take a long time over multiple pulses/actions/ turns in the original game happen very rapidly in Starmada. In the end it becomes Trek-flavored Starmada rather than a SFB clone.
Cheers,
Erik
I was also thinking that you could give the heavy direct fire weapons an additional trait - stand off weapon - allowing them to be fired from further out than standard fighter weapons. That range (3 or 6 I'd think) could have long and short penalties as normal if desired.
As for drones and plasma, I don't see why (from a game mechanism perspective) that fighters could not use those in a strtiker mode using essentially the same mechanism as ship borne weapons. The one thing I'd do add a Fighter launch step at the start of the fighter phase. If a fighter launches a seeking weapon, it places it in the hex at the beginning of it's move. That seeker can then be activated subsequently like any other fighter on the table. I would consider it a striker mode, so the fighter would then not be able to launch a normal attack this turn.
I have no idea exactly what cost such a thing would need to add to the fighter.
Brian
Another thing thats occurred to me as I'm statting up some fighters and a light carrier for testing, escorts. In SFB you don't deploy carriers, you deploy carrier groups, which include the carrier and it's escorts, and since the ships in KA are based on Fed Comm. and it uses fully refitted ships, that means that almost all the appropriate escorts will have Aegis.
I've been trying to come up with a way of simulating Aegis using Starmada rules, and the most logical way to me seems to be making the Weapons Dual Mode, with Anti-Fighter & +1 ROF for Limited Aegis, and Anti-Fighter & ROF+1 and a better hit chance for Full Aegis. However I see 3 issues to this;
1 - There is no existing trait to make a weapon fighter only, though I suppose Starship-Exclusive could be a template for Fighter-Exclusive, I'm trying to stay in the rules as written.
2 - Existing Dual Mode weapons ie. Photons & Disruptors, can you have a 3-mode weapon? Though I can see good reason for not applying Aegis to heavy weapons, using Photons on fighters is a little extreme, SFB does include it.
3 - The Klingon D5, which is already in the game has limited Aegis on it's Ph-3's and it has nothing to represent that (I assume the D5 they did in Fed Comm. is the same as when it was released in that game the Stingers were still in the future, so there were no fighters).
Ideas?
BTW thanks for the ideas above, they've all been useful, and helped me break out of my 2-dimensional thinking from too many years of SFB 
Matt
1 - There is no existing trait to make a weapon fighter only, though I suppose Starship-Exclusive could be a template for Fighter-Exclusive, I'm trying to stay in the rules as written.
See Klingon or Romulan Armada for Fighter-Exclusive weapon.
[2 - Existing Dual Mode weapons ie. Photons & Disruptors, can you have a 3-mode weapon? Though I can see good reason for not applying Aegis to heavy weapons, using Photons on fighters is a little extreme, SFB does include it.
God! I hope not.
Is there Aegis in FC? I am fairly sure that the designers notes said that some things would/could not be converted to Starmada.
Oh, hang on Aegis, yes that is in Vol.17 Chapter 22 page 3078. That is if SFB lawyer/players get their hands on re-writing Starmada rules. 
Paul
Damn you page 28!! I missed the Fighter exclusive! After playing around with it a little, I'm thinking of just a second mode for the Phasers on an Aegis armed ship with the Anti-Fighter and Fighter Exclusive traits. Ignoring the difference between limited and full Aegis
Right back to scribbling designs
Matt
I have considered escort ships as well. My thought was to have those ships carry Escort Fire Control. For simplicity sake, I was planning to simply add Fire Control when designing the ship to get the CRAT increase.
Escort Fire Control allows any of a ship's weapons (or maybe just Anti-Fighter weapons?) to engage fighters/seekers that move within some distance of the escort ship during the fighter phase. My initial thought was 3 hexes. I have no idea if this approximates the SFB Aegis rules (It's been nearly 20 years since I played SFB), but it does seem to allow escorts to do their thing - protect other ships from fighter-type weapons.
I'm already allowing weapons with Anti-Fighter to fire defensively in the Fighter Phase in a manner similar to anti-drones. Within the context of the Star Fleet Armadas, this has been a minor change as ship designs are set and there is not a way to optimize a ship to take advantage of the rule.
Brian
I'm already allowing weapons with Anti-Fighter to fire defensively in the Fighter Phase in a manner similar to anti-drones.
This looks like a good rule (and realistic as far as I can see), but note that carriers are particularly expensive. A hull carrying fighters will cost tremendously more than the same hull mountinh only weapons.
If using that rule, the cost for the carrier value should be downgraded.
Marc
Aegis allows you to fire, judge the results, then fire again, up to twice for limited Aegis or 4 times for full. Each weapon can still only fire once, but you don't have to declare all weapons at the start of the impulse like normal. However, Aegis can only target shuttles/fighters and drones, which is why I thought the Fighter Exclusive trait was important.
I'm interested to hear if anyone knows is the limited Aegis on the Klink D5 made it to Fed Comm. I suspect not which is why the KA D5 doesn't have it (mind you with my method the only effect this would have would be to add fighter exclusive to the Ph-3's anyway )
Your escort fire control probably emulates it better (btw Aegis allows you to use the connected weapons at up to their max range) than my idea. One drawback is that a lot of the Aegis ships only have it on some of their weapons (usually Ph-3's and the non-existent ADD's, and others have it on all weapons, so maybe 2 versions, one that works with only Anti-fighter weapons, and one that works with all weapons?
This feels very close to simulating the whole SFB fighter/escort system in a much simpler and fleet friendly way.
Matt
My thought was to allow Escort Fire Control only for Anti-Fighter Weapons (and anti-drones).
You can still shoot your heavier weapons at drones/fighters in the regular shooting step as usual.
My goal was obviously not to emulate any SFB rules, but rather to come up with something easy that would emulate SFB ship roles - i.e. an escort able to protect other ships. To me, Starmada is the ideal place to have escorts, scouts, and other support ships that you'd more likely see in a fleet action than deployed to some little squadron patrolling the border.
Brian
The only issue with that Brian, and this is purely from the SFU perspective, is that a lot of the escorts don't have the majority of their weapons as anti-fighter ones, ie. the E4E Escort has 4 Phaser-2's and 4 ADD racks, that I would imagine would become straight drone racks, I'll have to investigate some of the official conversions to see whats been done with ships heavy on ADD racks. Admittedly this is an old and not very good escort, but it's not alone in its lack of Ph-3's.
I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be, might have to throw together a carrier group and play around with it.
Matt
The only issue with that Brian, and this is purely from the SFU perspective, is that a lot of the escorts don't have the majority of their weapons as anti-fighter ones, ie. the E4E Escort has 4 Phaser-2's and 4 ADD racks, that I would imagine would become straight drone racks, I'll have to investigate some of the official conversions to see whats been done with ships heavy on ADD racks. Admittedly this is an old and not very good escort, but it's not alone in its lack of Ph-3's.
I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be, might have to throw together a carrier group and play around with it.
Matt
As you say, this is a pretty lousy escort, even in SFB terms as the Phaser 2 is bad at everything.
In Starmada terms, the drone racks are dual purpose, being able to launch a drone flight or fire as an anti-drone if drones target the ship. If you paid for Escort Fire Control on a ship and that allowed you to shoot the drone rack as anti-drones against any passing droe, then you'd be wasting the points paid to add capability to the weapon if you shot them offensively and would probably hold the drone racks as anti-drones.
The Anti-fighter restriction was just my initial off the top of my head idea. I'd say you'd have to playtest a few escorts to see how much the ability to shoot any of the escorts weapons at seekers affects play. However, since you can base the cost on an increase in ORAT (as with regular fire control), then you can adjust appropriately.
I'd say use the same cost as regular Fire Control, but only pay that cost for phasers and drone racks (i.e. increase ORAT by 1.3 for these weapons). standard 5% SU requirement seems appropriate, but is mostly irrelevant for the Star Fleet Universe since few of those ships have systems that fit into the SU space of their hulls anyway.
Only trying some ships and playtesting them will come up with an appropriate answer.
Brian
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