• Registered: 2011-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Topic: Conversions - Needs some maths help

I'm trying to convert B5 wars to Starmada.  I'm coming up with formulas for weapons, hull, sheilds and movement.  I'm a bit stuck on hull because I can't get my head round an issue.  Hopefully someone with more maths skills than me can figure this out (in fact maybe just some common sense is needed).

So I'm converting all the B5W structure points to hull.  I'm taking the average of all the side values, adding it to the primary and using that for hull.  Like so:

Sharlin
Primary = 80
Port + Starboard = 96
Forward = 70
Aft = 70

Average of all the sides + Primary = 96+96+70+70 / 4 = 83 + 80 = 163
Divide this by 10 to get the hull:  163 / 10 = 16 Hull

This is working out pretty good so far, except some ships don't have Port and Starboard ratings.  Some only have a Primary.  The primary only ones I can deal with because they have 0, but I'm not sure how to work out the Forward, Aft, Primary ones.

E.g. Demos
Pr = 30
F = 50
A = 46 

If I divide by 4 it is the same as the White star which only has a Primary of 48.  This doesn't seem right as the Demos has more structure to get through.  If I divide by 2 it seems too high as it's like a ship with all 4 sides with the same values. 

So what do I do, what am I missing?  It's driving me crazy!!  :evil:

  • Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

Maybe you should use complicated formulas to determine Hull size. Try the folllowing:
- Design weapons from what you think they should behave, using special traits if possible and not necessarily translate the B5 damage in Starmada damage.
- Determine the speed and the shield value for a ship, as well as special characteristics (hymperdrive, frie control, etc.).
- Install weapons.
- Use technology levels to diffenrentiate races.
- Determine hull so as to fit everything.

That way, you should avoid headache and box count.

Marc

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

I to am looking at converting B5wars but in my case for SFO. I am currently working on the weapons but have thought a bit of how to do the hulls. My initial thought was to just allocate a standard number of hull boxes for capital/medium/light ships and then adjust case by case to match the SU usage.

But to do it your way if 4 is too many and 2 too few why don't you divide by 3?

Alternatively don't average the side boxes but divide the total by say 25.
The Sharlin becomes  (96+96+70+70+80)/25 = 3.84+3.84+2.8+2.8+3.2 = 16.48 = 16
Demos becomes (30+46+5)/25 = 1.2+1.84+2= 5.04 = 5
White star 48/25=1.92 = 2

Of course you need to fit the weapons etc. in those hull sizes?

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

diddimus wrote:

So I'm converting all the B5W structure points to hull.  I'm taking the average of all the side values, adding it to the primary and using that for hull.  Like so:
Sharlin
Primary = 80
Port + Starboard = 96
Forward = 70
Aft = 70
Average of all the sides + Primary = 96+96+70+70 / 4 = 83 + 80 = 163
Divide this by 10 to get the hull:  163 / 10 = 16 Hull
This is working out pretty good so far, except some ships don't have Port and Starboard ratings.  Some only have a Primary.  The primary only ones I can deal with because they have 0, but I'm not sure how to work out the Forward, Aft, Primary ones.
E.g. Demos
Pr = 30
F = 50
A = 46 
If I divide by 4 it is the same as the White star which only has a Primary of 48.  This doesn't seem right as the Demos has more structure to get through.  If I divide by 2 it seems too high as it's like a ship with all 4 sides with the same values. 
So what do I do, what am I missing?  It's driving me crazy!!  :evil:

To keep the number of hull boxes larger for the ships that don't have four structural values you could simply divide by the number of structural areas instead of by four.

Therefore, the Demos would be calculated as follows:
Pr = 30
F = 50
P = 0
S = 0
A = 46
Hull = (((50 + 46) / 2) + 30) / 10 = 7.8 = 8

For a ship that has only three structural areas, in addition to the primary, you'd then divide by three.

Hypothetical example:
Pr = 40
F = 30
P = 25
S = 25
A = 0
Hull = (((30 + 25 + 25) / 3) + 40) / 10 = 6.7 = 7

Kevin

  • Registered: 2011-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

Thanks for your replies.  In the midst of writing quite a long reply I started scribbling again and I think I've got it!!

I realised that what mattered is what it takes to kill a ship.  I ended up getting to values I thought made sense with the ships I'm using as examples and then realised that Agents of Gaming probably designed the ships with some formula in mind in the first place which is why it seems to work.  Here's the formula:

Average the minimum and maximum amount of damage needed to kill a ship through 1 hex side!  E.g:

Sharlin
Primary = 80
Port + Starboard = 96
Forward = 70
Aft = 70

Min = 70 + 80 = 150
Max = 96 + 80 = 176
AVG = 163 = Hull 16

Demos
Pr = 30
F = 50
A = 46

Min = 46 + 30 = 76
Max = 50 + 30 = 80
AVG = 78= Hull 8

Others work out at:

WhiteStar = hull 5
Hyperion = hull 11

Anyone who knows B5 probably agrees this looks about right.

A flaw would seem to be that the Demos would be the same if it also had Port and Starboard of similar values, as all you use is the min/max.  However as stated above I think AoG designed the ships with the total needed to kill ships in mind so I'm hoping this works out.

I will keep you posted.

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

diddimus wrote:

I realised that what mattered is what it takes to kill a ship.  I ended up getting to values I thought made sense with the ships I'm using as examples and then realised that Agents of Gaming probably designed the ships with some formula in mind in the first place which is why it seems to work.  Here's the formula:
.

A long time ago Richard Bax wrote up a nice article on converting B5Wars to Fleet Action in the Babcom webzine. Fleet Action actually makes a really nice jumping off point for Starmada because of the scale involved so I have used a slightly modified version of the hull formula he had in the article. It is pretty good at rendering  progression of Hull as ships get larger in B5Wars terms. As an example you get the following Hull ratings for EA ships: Warlock: 15, Omega: 14, Nova: 13, Hyperion: 12, Oracle: 11, Olympus: 7, Artemis: 6, Tethys: 2. The Same method gives a hull of 6 for a Demos and 18 for a Sharlin.
Cheers,
Erik

  • Registered: 2011-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

Blacklancer99 wrote:

A long time ago Richard Bax wrote up a nice article on converting B5Wars to Fleet Action in the Babcom webzine. Fleet Action actually makes a really nice jumping off point for Starmada because of the scale involved so I have used a slightly modified version of the hull formula he had in the article. It is pretty good at rendering  progression of Hull as ships get larger in B5Wars terms. As an example you get the following Hull ratings for EA ships: Warlock: 15, Omega: 14, Nova: 13, Hyperion: 12, Oracle: 11, Olympus: 7, Artemis: 6, Tethys: 2. The Same method gives a hull of 6 for a Demos and 18 for a Sharlin.
Cheers,
Erik

Ooh, is there anywhere to get this?  Might save me some time counting boxes smile

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

diddimus wrote:
Blacklancer99 wrote:

A long time ago Richard Bax wrote up a nice article on converting B5Wars to Fleet Action in the Babcom webzine. Fleet Action actually makes a really nice jumping off point for Starmada because of the scale involved so I have used a slightly modified version of the hull formula he had in the article. It is pretty good at rendering  progression of Hull as ships get larger in B5Wars terms. As an example you get the following Hull ratings for EA ships: Warlock: 15, Omega: 14, Nova: 13, Hyperion: 12, Oracle: 11, Olympus: 7, Artemis: 6, Tethys: 2. The Same method gives a hull of 6 for a Demos and 18 for a Sharlin.
Cheers,
Erik

Ooh, is there anywhere to get this?  Might save me some time counting boxes smile

Well, the article is still available, but it only had the methodology for creating B5Wars-->Fleet Action conversions and only included examples, not a complete listing of statistics. If yo want to see the original article check here : http://planetside.firenebula.com/babcom/ and look at issue 3. I don't think anybody ever did a complete  conversion using the spreadsheet or the math that was in the article, and I did mine the way you are...counting boxes. I did a big conversion from B5Wars to S:X years ago with those hull numbers, but I don't know if I still have the files saved, they aren't on my current computer, but may be on a back up drive or disc. I have only done the EA ships and a couple of others for comparison from other forces in S:AE as other projects grabbed my attention. I'll see what I can find.
Cheers,
Erik

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

Lots of B5wars stuff here

http://b5warsvault.wikidot.com/

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

diddimus wrote:

Ooh, is there anywhere to get this?  Might save me some time counting boxes smile

Did you get the PM I sent?
E

  • Registered: 2011-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: Conversions - Needs some maths help

Just a quick update.  We should be playing our first test game tomorrow with my converted ships.  I'm really happy how it's turning out.  The only thing I think needs some tweaking might be the costs.  The Sharlin for example works out at 1500 points whereas the Hyperion is only about 350.  A Nova is 500.  I'm thinking of changing the formulas ever so slightly to reduce the bigger ships down.  The Sharlin has 18 hull and I think 4 sheilds.  Reducing everything down a bit will probably make it more likely to see play. 

The game we are playing tomorrow will be 2 Sharlins and 9 Hyperions.  Probably not far off what it would have been like on the Battle of the Line, but I'd rather get more Sharlins on the table. 

We'll see how it goes.  Thanks for everyone's help getting me this far.  I'll post my conversion rules and ship stats once I'm done.