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mj12games.com/forum → Starmada → Opinion: What defines a "type" - hull or CV?
When you're building a fleet, what is it that determines, for you, whether a ship is a destroyer, a battleship, or a torpedo boat? Is it strictly hull size that informs that decision? Or do you base it on combat value? or somewhere in between? Are there other factors?
Ignore for now the differentiation between an FF and an FFG for example - strictly base type for the sake of discussion.
I usually base this on Hull size.
Torpedo boat
Frigate
Destroyer
Lt Cruiser
Hv Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought
Carrier's are a class unto themselves as they can be HUGE or small.
You could just do
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Carrier
I don't see much difference between a frigate, and a destroyer. Or a heavy vs a light cruiser.
Hull size
Technically, you see more frigates doing escort duty for merchies and other transports, while destroyers do the fast moving warship convoys, but I can see your point.
I'm working on an all-Sol set of powers, and the temptation to just use the older nomenclature may be too hard to resist, but there's definitely a part of me that wants to go with totally nonstandard names for at least one of these space navies, using designations like "mothership" and "hunter-killer" and "interceptor" and the like.
Maybe give names as to the ships job
Escort
Battle-line
Scout
Defender
Attacker
I usually consider hull-size to determine type. I tend to consider anything less than 6 hull as "Escort" sized vessels. Destroyers, Frigates, Corvettes, Ferrarris. What classification it gets depends on role. Anything bigger than 6 I consider to be "Captial" ships or ships-of-the-line. Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships, etc.
6 hull I treat as a swing size. Depending on armament and speed is whether it's captial or escort.
The reason for the distinction between Escort and Capital is based on how I run heavy weapons, with escorts typically carrying lighter versions.
I tend to base it mostly on hull size, as follows:
Light things that I don't use much; Corvettes, Lancers, &c: 1-3
Destroyers / frigates: 4-5
Light cruisers: 6-7
Cruisers: 8-9
Heavy and battlecruisers: 9-11 (there's some overlap / discretionary here)
Battleships: 11-14ish
Dreadnoughts: >14
I also like to use MoO3's naming convention by hyperdrive capability / mobility, size, and task / purpose, so a jump capable point-defense destroyer mark n is denoted StrDesPtD-n (STaRship, DEStroyer, PoinT-Defense), while a battleship-size orbital fighter base would be OrbBatCar-n (Orbital, Battleship, Carrier, mark n). The function classes, I think, were long-range attack (LR), short-range attack (SR), recon / picket / EW (Rec), carrier (Car), point-defense (PtD), colony (Col), outpost (Out), and maybe a few others I'm forgetting, while the mobility classes were starship (Str), system ship / monitor (Sys), and orbital (Orb). It's a fun naming scheme.
Alex, with 6 being the pivot point, where do you top out for hull sizes? Like Nomad, with 14ish being the highest? Or do you go all the way to 20, 24 or higher?
I find myself inclined to stay in the sub-16 range as well, for some reason, and I delight in cramming impossible things into size 1 hulls, at least at this point my in my Starmada obsession.
You can decide as you like. For example, your ships can have a fixed hull value (DD = 4, CA = 8, etc.). You can determine this value as you like, but overall, ships should be consistent compared to others. You thenj fill them with whatever they should have.
The other method is to determine the contents which gives you the size in the end. That the biggest ships are a 24 or 16 hull size shouldn't be a problem. But the bigger the ships, the longer the games would be.
Marc
"But the bigger the ships, the longer the games would be."
Not to sure I agree with that.
If my Destroyers were Hull 10
My cruisers were Hull 20
and my Battleships were hull 40
Would the games go longer or stay the same?
"But the bigger the ships, the longer the games would be."
Not to sure I agree with that.
If my Destroyers were Hull 10
My cruisers were Hull 20
and my Battleships were hull 40Would the games go longer or stay the same?
They'd take longer in terms of real-life playing time, but probably a similar number of turns 
. I guess technically, you'd probably have lower speeds and higher shields because of the way the shield factor and engines factor scale with hull, so you might see more defense and less mobility. Not really sure.
Definitely Hull size for me determines the class of the ship.
-Tim
Definitely Hull size for me determines the class of the ship.
I think, after consideration, I have to agree with this. This allows, when coupled with tech levels, for the kinds of differences you see in fiction. "Our destroyers barely carry the firepower of their frigates! If it weren't for the strength of our hulls and our better shield technology, we wouldn't stand a chance!"
Completely spitballing here, but using the breakpoints already defined in certain rules:
Size 1-3: Type F ("Frigate") -- or Type E ("Escort")
Size 4-8: Type D ("Destroyer")
Size 9-15: Type C ("Cruiser")
Size 16-24: Type B ("Battleship")
Size 25+: Type A ("???")
Completely spitballing here, but using the breakpoints already defined in certain rules:
Size 1-3: Type F ("Frigate") -- or Type E ("Escort")
Size 4-8: Type D ("Destroyer")
Size 9-15: Type C ("Cruiser")
Size 16-24: Type B ("Battleship")
Size 25+: Type A ("???")
Nice - I'd not put that together before. A stands for somewhere between Armada and Armageddon, right? 
Oh, and I just noticed, I made Middy! Is there a byzantine hazing ritual I'm supposed to undergo now?
Oh, and I just noticed, I made Middy! Is there a byzantine hazing ritual I'm supposed to undergo now?
Feel free to flog yourself with a wet noodle at your convenience.
Alex, with 6 being the pivot point, where do you top out for hull sizes? Like Nomad, with 14ish being the highest? Or do you go all the way to 20, 24 or higher?
I find myself inclined to stay in the sub-16 range as well, for some reason, and I delight in cramming impossible things into size 1 hulls, at least at this point my in my Starmada obsession.
I tend to cap out at 14, though super-carriers, super-dreadnoughts and stations might go a bit higher. I don't think I'd go past 20.
For my own imaginary universe conversions, I use this formula, which allows for a good number of marines, a hyperdrive, and boarding pods on every ship, as well as good weapons:
Frigate: 6 (Usually Shields 2, Engines 6)
Destroyer: 8 (2/6)
Light Cruiser: 10 (3/5)
Heavy Cruiser: (3/4)
Carrier: 14 (3/4)
Dreadnaught: 15 (4/3)
Space Station: 20 (4/0)
I have large battleships and small destroyers. Here is my "standard" battleship design:
USS Arizona
Hull: 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Engines: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
Shields: 4 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1
Weapons: 1:X 2:X 3:Y 4:Y 5: 6:
X: "14 Inch Gauss Rifles" 6/12/18, 1/3+/1/4
Piercing +2; Starship-exclusive
[ABCD][ABCD][CDEF][CDEF]
Y: "5 Inch Laser Cannon" 6/12/18, 1/3+/1/1
[ABCD][HIJK][HIJK][CDEF]
Special: Hyperdrive; Armor Plating; Fire Control; Marines (4); Teleporters (4); Cargo (84)
(The the DDs I play are hull 4, shields 1, speed 5 with four of the "5 inch Laser Cannons" in two FX and two AX mount).
I really believe that setting determines the nomenclature that is appropriate for the ship's size. I don't think that in a construction-base game that it is possible to "pin" the size to a classification. For example, I can very easily justify having Flotilla Destroyers in one setting, while in another, destroyers are 4-5 Hull each. How 'bout another example? In modern terms a frigate is typically a small vessel relative to contemporaries, but during the Age of Sail a frigate was a major warship more akin to 20th century cruisers, with some being quite powerful.
Cheers,
Erik
The sailing frigates of the late 1700s and early 1800s were the cruisers of their day. The USA's frigate USS Constitution was, in many ways, a battlecruiser. with its heavier guns, 24 pounders vs the 18 pounders of other nations and having 44 guns instead of c34 guns, it had much heavier firepower. The hull made of Live Oak trees from Georgia's coastal islands was tough and the ship was larger than the European frigates. The British admiralLord Nelson predicted that these huge American frigates would be a formitable foe. In the War of 1812 they were just that. Although eventually blockaded in US ports by 1814, they were the battlecruisers of the 1800s. 8-)
I really believe that setting determines the nomenclature that is appropriate for the ship's size. I don't think that in a construction-base game that it is possible to "pin" the size to a classification. For example, I can very easily justify having Flotilla Destroyers in one setting, while in another, destroyers are 4-5 Hull each. How 'bout another example? In modern terms a frigate is typically a small vessel relative to contemporaries, but during the Age of Sail a frigate was a major warship more akin to 20th century cruisers, with some being quite powerful.
Cheers,
Erik
I agree with this. In Starblazers, as small ships blow up quickly, I made the destroyers 1-3 hull. One the other hand, in my own imaginary universe, they are always hull 8.
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