Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

That's not entirely true. The level of knowledge of physics, kinetic motion, action - reaction type effects, the environment of space...are all much farther along than the days of early sci-fi 1950's era making it fairly easy to make assumptions on fighter design based on logic, common sense, and projected advances in science.

The postulation comes more in the form of power plant (energy supply), radiation shielding, heat dissipation, control "surfaces" (I use this term lightly and simply for recognition effect), and weaponry.  For the most part, rad shielding and heat dissipation are irrelevant for the abstraction level of the rules.  Control is also less of an issue since simplicity requires the use of the same movement engine (rules).  That leaves us with power plant and weapons...likely the easiest of things to model when utilizing a single/dual pilot type short range strike craft.

You will not have the cockpit canopy so popular in current sci-fi.  More likely, pilots will be in the core of the hull behind inches of rad shielding, insulation, and armor plating capable of withstanding frequent impacts with dust particles or small rocks.  This core area will have the life support area behind it with additional rad shielding between that and the power plant and fuel supply.  Each end will likely have reaction thrusters (unless we develop a gravitic type drive system with a least a modicum of efficiency) in addition to the main drive behind.   Hence, the fighter will likely be spindle or lozenge shaped.  (Not very sexy, but the most space efficient and operationally feasible from an engineering perspective.)

Very short wings...or pylons housing heat dissipators among other things will likely have missiles/torpedoes at their tips...similar to how Sidewiders are mounted on current warplanes...and provide the primary anti-ship punch of the fighter. Again, this is the most cost efficient and damaging weapon system (likely tipped with nuclear warheads of some sort since Green Peace is still sucking atmosphere elsehwere  wink ) available for this scale of craft.  Energy weapons at the end points and/or bow are possible, but are more effective against enemy fighters than warships, due to (current) physics...and will be shorter ranged than the missiles due to simple dispersion of the energy "beam".  Beam weapons will always be limited in power to how much energy there is to supply them, refinement of the beam focus, and rate of dispersion/degradation of the beam itself once fired.  Simply put...a fighter at this scale with a comparable power plant commeasurate to its size...simply cannot put out the same fire power as a single battery from a proper warship, even one as light as a "corvette" class vessel. 

Also...since the fighter is going to have limited reaction mass, beam weapons are going to have to be mounted in turrets of some sort, further limiting the focus factor of their lensing, shortening potential range.  Kinetic weapons are possible, but will affect the mass factor of the ship for ammo and potentially create a thrust reaction depending on what is used and rate of fire (making them unlikely prospects)...and since their speed and trajectory can be affected by gravity and are easily avoided at all but point blank ranges (comparatively speaking in space)...not the best of options.

That's the basis of my arguements.   :ugeek:

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

I do not think that fighters are incorrectly pointed.   I have faced them many times and have not found them to be overly difficult to deal with. 
(They make excellent targets for the secondary Laser Cannon weapons all of my ships carry).  8-) 
If an opponant has a lot of fighters, the Sea Dart Strikers I described earlier can effectively reduce their number.  Then the AA laser cannon can deal with them.
For those who use the ammo option, it should be much easier to deal with fighters.  Just to dedicate one battery to a bank of simple one shot weapons with a range of at least 20.  These would eradicate lotsa fighters...  We don't use ammo, but I my friends in St Augustine did back in the Starmada "X" game.  My fleet was almost fighter proof.   :shock:

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

We can theorize how space fighters might work, but it's still theories until we actually deploy them and use them.

Un-manned may be the only way to go for small craft.  Weapon systems may be better on large ships.  Anti-spacefighter/spacemissile systems might work too well for small fighting craft to be effective.

Your man-in-a-ball fighter (a plated-over-window of the Star Wars T.I.E. fighter?) isn't very "romantic" and never shown in entertainment media, even though it may be the way they work.  Or the ball might be smaller with the "pilot" sitting safely in a large ship further away communicating with his vessel via direct beam communications.

The air-borne laser project by the USAF shows how a turreted laser beam can work, so long-nosed fighters might be better for laser weaponry.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

GamingGlen wrote:

We can theorize how space fighters might work, but it's still theories until we actually deploy them and use them.

I'm simply applying basic principles of engineering.

There is also sufficiently advanced 3-dimensional / spatial simulation software industrially available to predict space fighter behavior and to develop appropriate tactics and weapons doctrine. Think of an omni-directional version of PONG!  lol

The USAF laser (having actually seen the real working aircraft close up in the '90s) takes up the majority of the interior of a 747 and has a ball turret that is HUGE comparitavely speaking, (I remember it being about the size of a VW Bug) which might be a tad large for use on a fighter type craft.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

go0gleplex wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:

We can theorize how space fighters might work, but it's still theories until we actually deploy them and use them.

I'm simply applying basic principles of engineering.

There is also sufficiently advanced 3-dimensional / spatial simulation software industrially available to predict space fighter behavior and to develop appropriate tactics and weapons doctrine. Think of an omni-directional version of PONG!  lol

The USAF laser (having actually seen the real working aircraft close up in the '90s) takes up the majority of the interior of a 747 and has a ball turret that is HUGE comparitavely speaking, (I remember it being about the size of a VW Bug) which might be a tad large for use on a fighter type craft.

Well, this gets back to "what I think a fighter is" - this would be even bigger than a PT Boat.

AND it proves my point. You loose the wings, but it needs reaction mass or a reactor (or both), so it's the same size - and you have a 'current technology' fighter....Sure, technology might improve, but it's got to go MUCH farther, and it's rocket propelled, not jet propelled. Might even have FTL if it's an independent fighter.

The 'drone' model fits my idea of where we'll end up - tell a drone to 'go here, blow up that, return'. Gaming Glen is right, though - until we GET there, no one really knows what we'll use - if we ever do.

We might end up with something like 'The Culture' uses, purely robotic ships with the ability to manufacture about anything at will - especially given how long it might take us to get workable FTL. We're not even building orbital colonies, and we've got expert systems, who knows what future warships will be able to do?

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

I have no doubt that the space-going fighter is, for all intents and purposes, impractical and unlikely.  Drones won't be used either. It'll be simply one-way cruise type missiles...probably with some linked guidance capability but not a dedicated controller.  People take mass and resources, so everything will be as automated as possible where possible. Fewer people means fewer supplies required...or...that the supplies available will last longer, thereby increasing "cruising range" of the starship as a whole.

If you use a returning drone, then that's fuel and reaction mass needed and expended, meaning larger supplies to be carried on the mother vessel or reducing the overall endurance of said ship.  Strategically thinking, this puts ones forces at a disadvantage since the enemy can literally shorten the legs of your fleet leaving themselves a greater area in which to maneuver to their tactical advantage.  ad nauseum

It isn't a matter of knowing what we'll have when we get there. It's a matter of making logical projections of technology and their applications and applying them to environment and the laws of physics. If it were true about not knowing what we would be using until we get there...that little program called the "SPACE SHUTTLE" would never have gotten onto the drawing board.  The real question when developing such things is "what is it we're going to need?" Followed closely by "how can we make that happen?".

But I digress...we were originally talking about rules, not theoretical astronautics and aerospace engineering.  sorry for boring you.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

This discussion is illustrative of something I decided for Starmada a LOOONG time ago. Namely:

We don't care about the HOWS or WHYS of space travel and/or combat, only the WHATS.

Thus, you can explain the mechanics of fighters however you'd like -- all we care about is how they function within the game.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

How about a "Burst" weapon trait, that works something like this:

- Indirect fire - must be targeted at a Hex, not a ship.
- Roll to hit and if successful place a counter on the target hex.
- The counter stays in play until the end of the next fighter phase
- Any fighters etc passing through the counter take damage.

Reasonably effective on it's own, maybe deadly when combined with "Area Effect". A weapon like this could be used to lay a moving "curtain" of flak, providing a defensive barrier which the enemy fighters have to pass through. Could also be laid at close range between friendly ships and enemy carriers, reducing the effectiveness of the "10 hex barrage"


EDIT: The one thing no-one seems to have mentioned yet is that ISS/H&C "Point Defence" rule, that reduces a fighters chances of hitting. Presumably someone's used it?

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

cricket wrote:

This discussion is illustrative of something I decided for Starmada a LOOONG time ago. Namely:

We don't care about the HOWS or WHYS of space travel and/or combat, only the WHATS.

Thus, you can explain the mechanics of fighters however you'd like -- all we care about is how they function within the game.

But it does matter on whether ones thinks how large a threat fighters should pose.  The only thing we have to go on is what particular fictional universe do we want to simulate and then we'd have to allow optional cost/rules changes to fighter design or anti-fighter weapon design.  For Star Trek, fighters were very rare so it would seem big ships rule (excepting Star Fleet Battles adding fighters ad naseum which ruined the game for me); this could mean that either fighters were costlier for their effect, ship defenses were too strong for fighter-based weapons, or ship-based anti-fighter weapons were too effective against them (or fighters didn't matter to the plotlines  wink ).  But, many other universes, such as Star Wars and BSG, made fighters a larger threat.  What fighters did in those universes is allowed the individual main characters to have a larger role in space combat.  It would be tough to get a cruiser down the Death Star's trench.   big_smile

After I have designed a few fighters, I noticed that they do get expensive very quickly such that a squadron can rival a small ship in CRAT.  And generally, when playing against an opponent with long range weapons those expensive squadrons are not worth it.  I've since taken to using seekers (my "nukes": Piercing+1, IMP-3, DMG-3) and put them on ships that aim to get close enough to launch such that those seekers will not get shot at next turn before they get to move and attack their targets. (which means my "Klingons" started looking like SFB Klingons, and I hated drones on those ships... go figure   :roll: ).

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

GamingGlen wrote:
cricket wrote:

This discussion is illustrative of something I decided for Starmada a LOOONG time ago. Namely:

We don't care about the HOWS or WHYS of space travel and/or combat, only the WHATS.

Thus, you can explain the mechanics of fighters however you'd like -- all we care about is how they function within the game.

But it does matter on whether ones thinks how large a threat fighters should pose.  The only thing we have to go on is what particular fictional universe do we want to simulate and then we'd have to allow optional cost/rules changes to fighter design or anti-fighter weapon design.

EXACTLY....Kevin is being cheeky, as he's well aware of the problem, and just jumps in to stir the mud...
lol

GamingGlen wrote:

For Star Trek, fighters were very rare so it would seem big ships rule (excepting Star Fleet Battles adding fighters ad naseum which ruined the game for me); this could mean that either fighters were costlier for their effect, ship defenses were too strong for fighter-based weapons, or ship-based anti-fighter weapons were too effective against them (or fighters didn't matter to the plotlines  wink ).  But, many other universes, such as Star Wars and BSG, made fighters a larger threat.  What fighters did in those universes is allowed the individual main characters to have a larger role in space combat.  It would be tough to get a cruiser down the Death Star's trench.   big_smile

After I have designed a few fighters, I noticed that they do get expensive very quickly such that a squadron can rival a small ship in CRAT.  And generally, when playing against an opponent with long range weapons those expensive squadrons are not worth it.  I've since taken to using seekers (my "nukes": Piercing+1, IMP-3, DMG-3) and put them on ships that aim to get close enough to launch such that those seekers will not get shot at next turn before they get to move and attack their targets. (which means my "Klingons" started looking like SFB Klingons, and I hated drones on those ships... go figure   :roll: ).

I don't recall all the rules that affect fighters, but what Starmada needs, in order to address all facets of the problem - is a more scalable way to address fighters for the 'not so effective' role. For the "I'm Luke Skywalker" end of things, you need to look at it like Star Fleet Battles does. For most of us, the current system with a few tweaks is just fine.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

I still come back to the basic problem that if somebody fires drones/missiles at you and are within range there is zero defense against them.  Same for fighters but they cost more and you can at least potentially kill them next turn.  Whatever the physics I don't think we are postulating that fighters/drones magically appear next to ships to hit them thus explaining why a ship's crew can't fire as they approach...

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

graydo wrote:

I still come back to the basic problem that if somebody fires drones/missiles at you and are within range there is zero defense against them.  Same for fighters but they cost more and you can at least potentially kill them next turn.  Whatever the physics I don't think we are postulating that fighters/drones magically appear next to ships to hit them thus explaining why a ship's crew can't fire as they approach...

Simplest fix ever. Simply house rule that seekers/fighters/strykers may not attack the same turn they are launched.

Problem solved.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

Another possible house rule option:

Counter Missile (seeker) Battery
SU Cost = Total SU times X%
Point Cost = SU cost times X
(been a long day at the office and brain is fried  :roll:  )

Able to engage incoming small craft only up to a range of 3 hexes away.  Roll 1d6 per group...a result of 1 or 6 destroys one fighter/stryker/seeker (etc.).  Fires in the small craft launch phase and resolves interception attack before other small craft do.

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

graydo wrote:

I still come back to the basic problem that if somebody fires drones/missiles at you and are within range there is zero defense against them.  Same for fighters but they cost more and you can at least potentially kill them next turn.  Whatever the physics I don't think we are postulating that fighters/drones magically appear next to ships to hit them thus explaining why a ship's crew can't fire as they approach...


Other than Googleplex's (or other suggested house rules posted here) suggestions, how about just assuming the other guy might HAVE those things, and plan accordingly?

I don't think the game is broken....there's things in real life against which there is no (easy) defense....

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

I agree.  Fighters, strikers, and seekers have not been overly destructive to my ships when I play Starmada. 8-)

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

thedugan wrote:

Other than Googleplex's (or other suggested house rules posted here) suggestions, how about just assuming the other guy might HAVE those things, and plan accordingly?

I don't think the game is broken....there's things in real life against which there is no (easy) defense....

Not having an easy defense is quite a bit different from "your only defense is to stay well out of range."  Googleplex's solution is a pretty respectable one though...

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

graydo wrote:
thedugan wrote:

Other than Googleplex's (or other suggested house rules posted here) suggestions, how about just assuming the other guy might HAVE those things, and plan accordingly?

I don't think the game is broken....there's things in real life against which there is no (easy) defense....

Not having an easy defense is quite a bit different from "your only defense is to stay well out of range."  Googleplex's solution is a pretty respectable one though...

Interesting to see that the 2012 release may address this issue...

Re: Fighter/Seeker Query

go0gleplex wrote:

Simplest fix ever. Simply house rule that seekers/fighters/strykers may not attack the same turn they are launched.

Problem solved.

Except that is what the rules say. They are launched during turn X and attack during turn X+1.

Marc