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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Marauder wrote:

With solar wind shouldn't you move fastest when you are traveling perpendicular to the direction of the wind?

Seconded.  I also play Eldar, so I was excited to see this.  I also play Age of Sail games AND I grew up sailing.   lol

I think this could be implemented in a way that is both more "realistic" (whatever that's worth in a space-faring game) and presents more tactical challenges.  Marauder's suggestion is good.  Sails are at their most efficient when reaching.  That can't be accurately modeled without resorting to a 12 point facing system.  But Wooden Ships and Iron Men did a decent job, using a four point system.  I suggest the same:

<IMG src="http://i43.tinypic.com/11l0cc6.png">http://i43.tinypic.com/11l0cc6.png</IMG>

So the broad reach is the fastest.  The close reach and running are slower.  And the no-go zone is slowest.

That said, even if you just went with the two point system, I think the bonus should be in effect on the broad reach, not while running.

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Ok, well I posted well after everyone else had.  That's what I get for trying to make a fancy pic.  Thanks Dan for the correction!

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Okay, sounds great guys!

@Oldngray - I don't disagree with you on the principal of solar wind - however if this is to be used in an "Age of sail" adaptation, may as well go that way to start - plus the only popular space faring race that uses solar wind that I know of are the eldar - and in gothic they did get the treatment like this.

Dan - excited to hear about the different movement modes being "conceptually equal".  We're keen on using Starmada NE for our next campaign - and anything we can do to make ships a bit different is great.  I know Trent will be all over the Solar movement - and everyone else will probably choose between the regular and the etheric.

-Tim

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Marauder wrote:

Okay, sounds great guys!

@Oldngray - I don't disagree with you on the principal of solar wind - however if this is to be used in an "Age of sail" adaptation, may as well go that way to start - plus the only popular space faring race that uses solar wind that I know of are the eldar - and in gothic they did get the treatment like this.

-Tim

I think the problem is that realistic solar sailing is very boring because you can only accelerate directly away from the sun.  Since there is no ether to push against, reaching is not possible.  While this is a very fuel efficient way to change your orbit, in tactical situations it is not very useful. 

Perhaps make solar wind sailing require etheric movement?

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Maybe the Eldar actually use Solar Panels which use the sun light to generate energy for propulsion and they got changed in the translation. smile

As a side note, there was an enjoyable, very simple set of rules for Napoleonic sea battles with large numbers of ships.
Flagship by Nigal J Hodge (Hodgegames 1993)

Paul

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

cricket wrote:
murtalianconfederacy wrote:

Cool, solar wind movement. Did I perchance give you the inspiration for that Dan?

Actually, it was the Eldar minis that did it... wink

Damn, was hoping I influenced the rules in some way...:(

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

so if we now can emulate the Eldar solar sails, maybe there will be rules for Eldar holoshields too? (just joking smile)

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Enpeze wrote:

so if we now can emulate the Eldar solar sails, maybe there will be rules for Eldar holoshields too? (just joking smile)

ECM looks pretty promising; it's basically just a negative shift on the 'gunnery table' for each weapon...  You're not going to get the same effect against lances and fighters that you do in BFG, but against most battery weapons, a couple points of ECM is a non-terrible simulation.

Also, Cricket, I'd argue that sometimes different movement rules for different fleets would provide an advantage.  In AE, at least, Naval Movement is strictly better than Basic Movement, for example, since it allows more turns without any loss of function (unless maybe you're not allowed to move in reverse?  I forget...  it's been a while).  Solar vs Normal looks pretty entertaining, though.

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

I don't pretend to know whether one movement system would be "better" than another. All I will say officially is that the intent is for both sides to use the same system in any given game. If your group gets good results allowing one side to use solar and the other normal movement, I'd love to hear about it.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

I have to say Nova Edition is turning into a dream for Eldar players - ECM as a main defense - stealth with a rating - solar movement!  All you need to do now is to come up with a negative ship trait where they have a penalty to the damage threshold rolls (i.e. to simulate how they were critically hit more easily in gothic).

Nomad - I think you'd have to be careful as to what movement modes you allowed - I don't think any two just work together - but solar seems to be fairly balanced with the basic movement. 

I've seen some other systems that allow you to purchase different drive types that simulate different physics models.  In those systems the ones that are clearly superior cost more/take more space or whatever.

Etheric seems a bit balanced, because while it doesn't allow you to reach the same breakneck speeds of the basic movement - it gives you some free breaking so keep things under control a bit better.

-Tim

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Marauder wrote:

I have to say Nova Edition is turning into a dream for Eldar players - ECM as a main defense - stealth with a rating - solar movement!  All you need to do now is to come up with a negative ship trait where they have a penalty to the damage threshold rolls (i.e. to simulate how they were critically hit more easily in gothic).

Nomad - I think you'd have to be careful as to what movement modes you allowed - I don't think any two just work together - but solar seems to be fairly balanced with the basic movement. 

I've seen some other systems that allow you to purchase different drive types that simulate different physics models.  In those systems the ones that are clearly superior cost more/take more space or whatever.

Etheric seems a bit balanced, because while it doesn't allow you to reach the same breakneck speeds of the basic movement - it gives you some free breaking so keep things under control a bit better.

-Tim

I agree with everything said here.  Using small hulls might be enough, just via increased frequency of crit checks, but then again maybe not.  Still, looking much better than AE for Eldar.  I'll probably still keep cloaking on mine, though...  it's just too much fun.  Guess I'll call 'em Dark Eldar.

I was just contesting Cricket's statement on the previous page of posts that using different movements shouldn't unbalance things with a counterexample; not saying that any particular combinations of the new movement rules appears immediately unbalanced.  If I had seen that, I'd've said so instead tongue.

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Marauder wrote:

All you need to do now is to come up with a negative ship trait where they have a penalty to the damage threshold rolls

Did I forget to mention the "fragile systems" ship trait? My bad... smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

cricket wrote:
Marauder wrote:

All you need to do now is to come up with a negative ship trait where they have a penalty to the damage threshold rolls

Did I forget to mention the "fragile systems" ship trait? My bad... smile

Hooray!  It's almost like Dan knew people wanted to play Eldar, or somebody ran them during the internal playtesting...  hmmm...

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

cricket wrote:

Did I forget to mention the "fragile systems" ship trait? My bad... smile

Damn swanky!

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Now, Eldar also have superior fighters and bombers (and torps).  Got those too?  big_smile

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Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Marauder wrote:

Now, Eldar also have superior fighters and bombers (and torps).  Got those too?  big_smile

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to build those the old-fashioned way.   8-)

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

madpax wrote:

It seems that overthrusters have disapeared. Had they been replaced by something else?
Btw, about pivot, which are related to OVT, i've read that they simulated the ability to move in a direction different to the ship's front. So, why should it have to pay for pivot each turn?
it should pay once and keep the pivot freely as long as it doesn't pay    to modify it. Either one direction or the other.

Marc

Err, my post was lost in the solar wind...

Marc

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

madpax wrote:

It seems that overthrusters have disapeared. Had they been replaced by something else?

They have been removed -- at least from the core rules. See below.

Btw, about pivot, which are related to OVT, i've read that they simulated the ability to move in a direction different to the ship's front. So, why should it have to pay for pivot each turn?
it should pay once and keep the pivot freely as long as it doesn't pay    to modify it. Either one direction or the other.

This is true, so long as the ship doesn't change its velocity or direction of travel, which would require it to pivot accordingly, and then "re"-pivot back to the desired facing.

I have removed the "pivot" option for now, because I thought it was inelegant. I am open to suggestions.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

I don't have a suggestion except to keep it modified as above. With a bit of explanation (I didn't understand its purpose at first).
So it would be:
A Ship may 'expend' a 60° turn ability to make a pivot. For this prupose, do not turn the ship during its move (aside making real turns), but, at the end of its move, pivot it 60°. Then, at the end of the turn, pivot it the opposite (to cancel the pivot).
This pivot is active each turn, without having to expend turn, unless modified. Thus, it could be increased, up to 3 60° turns, or cancelled.

Marc

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

I would not miss pivots at all.


Regarding optional rules. What I like about Starmada is that there are only a few core rules and lots of optional rules. Usually I take a fat yellow marker and do mark the optional rules I want to use ingame, after printing out the whole pdf. I would prefer only to print out the rules I marked, but this is not possible because often there are rules I like and dislike on the same pdf page.

So my question to Dan: Is it possible to release a special pdf where each single optional rule chapter is layouted on a seperate page? So one can buy the "classic-one-sausage" version and/or such a segmented special version? Or has someone an idea for another solution for this (admittedly rather small) problem?

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

I would not miss pivots at all.

I would!

I'm concerned about a few things that seem to be missing from Nova that made ships more special.  I hope Nova isn't too bland and "hard scifi" only.

Pivots and armour plating have gone it seems.  I struggled with the last version a little to represent special ships in B5 such as the White star and Vree ships but I got there in the end.  Now it seems ships all just have variations on the same few options. 

I hope I'm mistaken because I've been sooo looking forward to this new version.

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

diddimus wrote:

I would not miss pivots at all.

I would!

I'm concerned about a few things that seem to be missing from Nova that made ships more special.  I hope Nova isn't too bland and "hard scifi" only.

Pivots and armour plating have gone it seems.  I struggled with the last version a little to represent special ships in B5 such as the White star and Vree ships but I got there in the end.  Now it seems ships all just have variations on the same few options. 

I hope I'm mistaken because I've been sooo looking forward to this new version.

Instead of "armour plating" there is "armour" as a major ship defense.  This was a necessary change because of the way damage is now being allocated (i.e. there are only damage rolls after certain thresholds not for each point inflicted).  But definitely armour is still there and IMHO better than before (mostly because you now can have a little armour or a lot of armour).

Our group never used pivots - probably because we were a bit intimidated by the calculations and order writing required to use the vectored movement system in AE.  Now that vectored movement is easier to execute, I could see some of us dabbling with pivots - but it wouldn't be a disappointment for us if it wasn't included.

-Tim

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

Enpeze wrote:

I would not miss pivots at all.

I would miss pivots, but not their complicated method of computation. I would miss overthrusters, or any other mean to represent agile ships, which exists in SFO.

What I didn't like about armor plating is that it applied only vs engine. Although I understand why it didn't apply to shield and weapons (although for the latter, I can envision armored cupolas...).

On the other hand, aside the method of conversion, I fail to see a difference between the three types of shield.

Marc

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

madpax wrote:

On the other hand, aside the method of conversion, I fail to see a difference between the three types of shield.

Marc

I suspect the difference will be in what weapon traits there are that counter the defenses. 

Its by design that their effectivnesses are equivalent though - much easier to assign a point value to them.  Overall your choice of defense(s) should be based on what the background for the race/faction you are designing or emulating is - or perhaps you just like a particular game mechanic - but I think its correct to essentially have all the defenses be on equal footing.

-Tim

Re: New edition of Starmada coming in January!

madpax wrote:

I would miss pivots, but not their complicated method of computation. I would miss overthrusters, or any other mean to represent agile ships, which exists in SFO.

One of the biggest struggles I have is how to define "agile" in terms of spaceships. What does it mean to be "more agile"?

I would argue that, when using an inertial/vector-based movement system, there is no such thing. Your ability to accelerate/decelerate is inherently tied to your ability to change course (since changing course simply means accelerating in a different direction).

The "problem" I had found with overthrusters is they only applied if you were using a specific optional rule (pivots) and NOT another (non-inertial movement).

If people have suggestions for how to simulate "agility", I'm listening...

On the other hand, aside the method of conversion, I fail to see a difference between the three types of shield.

Not sure I understand... ?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com