• From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Command trait

underling wrote:

So one scout ship lowers the ECM ratings of every opposing ship, subject to the above restrictions?

Yes.

Meta-game reason: the reduction in ECM ratings translates to an effective firepower increase of roughly 21%. This translates to a 10% increase in combat rating. A single scout ship increases a fleet's total combat rating by approximately 53 points. Thus, if you've got at least one scout per 500 points, you've "paid" for that 10% increase.

In-game reason: a scout isn't affecting all enemy ships at the same time -- it can direct its abilities where it is most needed at any given point in the battle. However, the larger the fleet, the more scouts required to coordinate all that firepower.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: Command trait

cricket wrote:
underling wrote:

So one scout ship lowers the ECM ratings of every opposing ship, subject to the above restrictions?

Yes.
Meta-game reason: the reduction in ECM ratings translates to an effective firepower increase of roughly 21%. This translates to a 10% increase in combat rating. A single scout ship increases a fleet's total combat rating by approximately 53 points. Thus, if you've got at least one scout per 500 points, you've "paid" for that 10% increase.
In-game reason: a scout isn't affecting all enemy ships at the same time -- it can direct its abilities where it is most needed at any given point in the battle. However, the larger the fleet, the more scouts required to coordinate all that firepower.

A ship that loses one step of ECM is losing about 13% of its value.
So in a 500 point game you're telling me that if a Scout ship is worth around 65 points, then the fact that one side pays 65 points for a ship with Scout (and in effect forfeiting 65 points of offense) should balance out the fact that the other side is losing 13% of their 500 points?

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Command trait

underling wrote:

A ship that loses one step of ECM is losing about 13% of its value.

It's more like 16%. But that's not the right way to approach it. Being able to counter 1 point of a ship's ECM is the same as increasing firepower by 41%. However, since not every ship will have ECM, I'm using 2^(1/3) rather than 2^(1/2) as the factor... or an increase of 26%.

Increasing all of your fleet's firepower by 26% will result in a combat rating increase of 12%.

Adding the scout ability to one ship is worth about 53 points.

53 is 12% of 432.

Okay, so I did something wrong along the way -- it should be one scout per 400 points.

If you think that's too generous, and want to use the full 2^(1/2) as the basis for these calculations, it comes to roughly one scout per 300 points.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: Command trait

cricket wrote:
underling wrote:

A ship that loses one step of ECM is losing about 13% of its value.

It's more like 16%. But that's not the right way to approach it. Being able to counter 1 point of a ship's ECM is the same as increasing firepower by 41%. However, since not every ship will have ECM, I'm using 2^(1/3) rather than 2^(1/2) as the factor... or an increase of 26%.
Increasing all of your fleet's firepower by 26% will result in a combat rating increase of 12%.
Adding the scout ability to one ship is worth about 53 points.
53 is 12% of 432.
Okay, so I did something wrong along the way -- it should be one scout per 400 points.
If you think that's too generous, and want to use the full 2^(1/2) as the basis for these calculations, it comes to roughly one scout per 300 points.

I guess I'm not following the logic then.
You can crunch all of the numbers you want, but in the end here's what I see as the result:
I pay 500 points for a ship, with an ECM of 1.
My opponent brings a mix of ships, one of which costs about 60 points and has Scout.
That means my opponent has 440 points worth of other ships that are presumably more offensive than the Scout ship.
But because my one level of ECM has been negated, my ship has just lost 16%, or 80 points, of its value.

And this example would really suck...
My 500 point ship has an ECM of three.
My opponent brings a Scout ship with no weapons, and an ECM of two (which doesn't drive up the point cost of the Scout ship much at all).
Now one level of ECM is negated, and per the rules on ECM the Scout ship can negate the other level of ECM by using its own ECM offensively (assuming I'm interpreting the rules correctly on that).

Kevin

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Command trait

underling wrote:

You can crunch all of the numbers you want, but in the end here's what I see as the result:
I pay 500 points for a ship, with an ECM of 1.
My opponent brings a mix of ships, one of which costs about 60 points and has Scout.
That means my opponent has 440 points worth of other ships that are presumably more offensive than the Scout ship.
But because my one level of ECM has been negated, my ship has just lost 16%, or 80 points, of its value.

You "lost" 80 points of your 500-point ship.

But (using the revised limits, above) the two scouts in my 500-point fleet cost me 106 points. If we both increase our fleet sizes to 800, then your 16% loss becomes 128 points, which is comparable to the 106 points I'm paying for my scouts.

Now one level of ECM is negated, and per the rules on ECM the Scout ship can negate the other level of ECM by using its own ECM offensively (assuming I'm interpreting the rules correctly on that).

True. But that reduction only applies to attacks from the ship using EPM -- it does not transfer to the rest of the fleet.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2011-09-30
  • Posts: 69

Re: Command trait

Well, this optional(?) rule would definitely throw another level of complexity, as fleets bring along sufficient scout resources when facing fleets that use ECM, and then find themselves needing to defend them, as they'll be primary targets, and if the fleet has both ECM and escorts, the other side will need even more scouts...

  • Registered: 2010-03-09
  • Posts: 630

Re: Command trait

Are there some news about a possible use of command?

I will play tomortrow my first game of SNE. I would have playtest those rules except I don't know what to playtest.

BTW, I plan to play 3 hours, rules explanation included. What kind of budget should I use?

Marc

  • Registered: 2022-11-16
  • Posts: 516

Re: Command trait

madpax wrote:

Are there some news about a possible use of command?
I will play tomortrow my first game of SNE. I would have playtest those rules except I don't know what to playtest.
BTW, I plan to play 3 hours, rules explanation included. What kind of budget should I use?
Marc

We play-tested for every level of command, a +1 modifier was added to the initiative die roll.
This has changed, though, so I don't think it's goint to work this way any longer.
I like it, but hey...

I'm just a lackey...
A mook...
An underling...

I also can't give you much of an idea on what we paid as far as point cost for the ability.
I seem to remember it being a percentage of ths hip cost.

As for the size of game, since it's your first game I'd target somewhere around 1000 to 1200 points per side.
This should give you several nice size ships, as well as a few little guys, for each force.

If you want a faster playing game, try playing at 500-600 points.
This could give you one 250-300 point ship, a couple of 75 point ships, and a couple of 30 to 50 point ships.

Kevin