Topic: SFU Thrust Ratings

For the Nova conversions of SFU ships, I've gone with a set thrust rating equivalency, depending upon the ship's classification:

Battleships = 3
Dreadnoughts = 4
Heavy Cruisers, Battlecruisers = 5
Fast Cruisers, Light Cruisers = 6
Destroyers, Frigates = 7

Most ships will fall easily into one of these categories. However, I'm curious if experienced players have thoughts on other ships that should have thrust ratings higher or lower than this chart might indicate?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Interesting.  Here is what I use in my ships:
My DNs & BBs have a thrust rating of 4;
my BCs, CAs, CLs, DDs, & CVs, CVls have a thrust of 5;
my CVE has a thrust of 4. 8-)
The Federation & Klingon ships I have made for new players to use all have a thrust of 5.
And I have a one hull "gunboat"  with a speed of 8 and a CombatValue=10

All of my ships now have Acr on all of their weapons.  The game my friends & I play on Thursday will be interesting...

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Great Topic!  Thanks for giving us the opportunity to give you some input cricket.

In Starfleet battles (I'm not so familiar with the newer Federation Commander) the speed ships could attain was a complex relation of how much warp power they had and how much they were willing to dedicate to just movement.  Trying to port that over to another game would be painful at best.  However the extreme cases should probably be considered (e.g frieghters on the low power end and fast cruisers on the high end). 

Perhaps though the more pressing issue is maneuverability.  SFB (and I believe FC) ships have turn modes.  This is generally related to the class of the ship, but varies from race to race.  I think this is actually the most important aspect of movement to capture, given that most warships had similar speed limits.

So here's my two proposals:

1) Base thrust on turn mode
This should be quite straight forward since all the SSD's clearly list the turn mode:

Mode Thrust
F         2
E         3
D         4
C         5
B         6
A         7
AA       8

Ships with lots of spare warp power (e.g. fast cruisers or X-ships) should get some bonus thrust.  Ships that have less warp power than they need to go "full speed"  (e.g. monitors, frieghters, tugs - but not battleships or dreadnoughts) should get a bit of a penalty on thrust.

This would give a Fed CA a thrust of 4 and a Klingon D7 a thrust of 6 - which I think speak well to their relative turning ability.

Any ship listed as "Agile" should probably get overthrusters.  I wouldn't want overthrusters to be a really common thing on ships.


2) Add new Ship Traits for Maneuverability

Definitely a more complicated option as it requires coming up with sensible new traits AND finding an appropriate cost for them.  If this could be pulled off then I'd have some much different "thrust" suggestions - probably based on the ratio of warp power vs. warp movement cost - which would actually land most of the fighting ships in about the same area - but with some exceptions (e.g. new Romulan "hawk" series ships have lots more power than the original "eagle" series ships).

-Tim

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Based on my (relatively) poor experience on Starmada, especially on SFU, slow ships tend to usually have a lot of firepower. Combined with poor defenses when using SAE facets, ships tended to die fairly quickly. Games were thus not really enjoyable.
I don't feel the thrust value should be viewed alone. I feel an interesting mix, for play purposes, should be ships with enough speed, not a lot of firepower, and adequate defense. I know it's not easy to do that, but it could ensure interesting games, where battle are not resolved when ships enter the medium range of most weapons. The SAE Phasers were the example of what shouldn't have been done, as a ship was easily shredded by the phaser fire of an enemy ship of the same size at medium range. And I don't event talk about torpedoes. When comparing battles in SFB, phasers weren't that powerful, and you usualy wait until you see the white of their eyes even when firing phaser 1.

Marc

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Okay, had some more thoughts.  Without complicating life too much, this would work within the current system:

Base Thrust
Battleships and Dreadnoughts: Thrust 4
Cruisers of all types: Thrust 5
Destroyers and Lighter: Thrust 6

Take base thrust and modify by turn mode and warp power

Turn Mode
If a ship has poor turning in SFB (Turn mode E or worse) then -1 thrust
If a ship has good turning in SFB (Turn mode B or better) then +1 thrust

Warp Power based on SFB stats
If a ship has enough warp to generate 30 movement then no modifier
If a ship has enough warp to generate more than 30 movement +1 thrust (e.g. some war cruisers, most romulan "hawk" ships)
If a ship has enough warp to generate significantly more than 30 points +2 thrust (e.g. fast cruisers, raiding dreadnoughts, x-ships etc).
If a ship has less warp than is required to move 30 then -1 modifier (e.g. romulan war eagle)
If a ship has significantly less warp than is required to move 30 than -2 (e.g. freighters, monitors etc)

@Madpax - I agree with you, although I think the issue lies more with balancing firepower and defenses than with thrust - and to be honest I think the weapons are probably already "locked in" so it would be more a matter of just increasing the relative defenses and/or hull points of ships to compensate.

-Tim

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Marauder wrote:

Great Topic!  Thanks for giving us the opportunity to give you some input cricket.

In Starfleet battles (I'm not so familiar with the newer Federation Commander) the speed ships could attain was a complex relation of how much warp power they had and how much they were willing to dedicate to just movement.  Trying to port that over to another game would be painful at best.  However the extreme cases should probably be considered (e.g frieghters on the low power end and fast cruisers on the high end). 

Perhaps though the more pressing issue is maneuverability.  SFB (and I believe FC) ships have turn modes.  This is generally related to the class of the ship, but varies from race to race.  I think this is actually the most important aspect of movement to capture, given that most warships had similar speed limits.

So here's my two proposals:

1) Base thrust on turn mode
This should be quite straight forward since all the SSD's clearly list the turn mode:

Mode Thrust
F         2
E         3
D         4
C         5
B         6
A         7
AA       8

Ships with lots of spare warp power (e.g. fast cruisers or X-ships) should get some bonus thrust.  Ships that have less warp power than they need to go "full speed"  (e.g. monitors, frieghters, tugs - but not battleships or dreadnoughts) should get a bit of a penalty on thrust.

This would give a Fed CA a thrust of 4 and a Klingon D7 a thrust of 6 - which I think speak well to their relative turning ability.

Any ship listed as "Agile" should probably get overthrusters.  I wouldn't want overthrusters to be a really common thing on ships.


2) Add new Ship Traits for Maneuverability

Definitely a more complicated option as it requires coming up with sensible new traits AND finding an appropriate cost for them.  If this could be pulled off then I'd have some much different "thrust" suggestions - probably based on the ratio of warp power vs. warp movement cost - which would actually land most of the fighting ships in about the same area - but with some exceptions (e.g. new Romulan "hawk" series ships have lots more power than the original "eagle" series ships).

-Tim

I like option 1 a lot. There are times when I wish Starmada had a way to handle maneuver versus straight line acceleration, but I have come to the conclusion that it isn't really worth the headaches.
Cheers,
Erik

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

I've tried out both using thrust based on size (and then modified for warp power and turn mode) and also thrust based on turn mode (and then modified by warp power).

I have to say the turn mode one "feels" better.  I have to double check some numbers and then I'll post some examples.  I think one reason it feels better is because the turn mode already has the "size" of the ship accounted for.

Dan I know you aren't big on a D7 being faster than a constitution class - but as I see it there really is not upper limit on "speed" with the starmada movement system - if anything speeds become unpractically high quite fast.  If you want to maneuver you have to stay near your thrust mode in speed - and thus turn mode!

EDIT:
Here's some samples:
Fed CA: 5
Klingon D7: 7
Fed FFG: 8
Kzinit DN: 4
Fed CL: 6
Fed NCL: 7
Fed CF: 7
Fed DW: 7
Orion Light Raider: 10
Kzinti Frigate: 9
Rom Battle Hawk: 4
Rom Skyhawk: 8
Rom King Eagle: 5
Rom Fire Hawk: 6
Free Trader: 5
Small Freighter: 4
Large Freighter: 3
Heavy Freighter: 2

Based on "Turn mode" and then warp ratio and a misc bonus.  If warp ratio is 36 or more +1, if its less than 30 -1 and if its less than 20 -2.  Misc bonuses are for "dedicated fast ships" +1 and nimble +1.  I decided the CFs need a higher bonus than just based on warp to make them interesting.  The logic being they have less heavy weapons so more available power to engines as opposed to the war cruisers/raiding DN's/frigates that all have high warp ratios but still are packing their full compliment of heavy weapons. 

Edit 2: Okay, can't figure out how to do attachments in PM's so here's the spreadsheet with all the thrusts based on the method above.

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Marauder wrote:

@Madpax - I agree with you, although I think the issue lies more with balancing firepower and defenses than with thrust - and to be honest I think the weapons are probably already "locked in" so it would be more a matter of just increasing the relative defenses and/or hull points of ships to compensate.

-Tim

If all ships are slow, they will have a lot of time to suffer. I like when my battles end with a lot of swirling maneuvers, dogfights, etc.
If the fleet just move toward each mover in a more or less straight way and the game end before real maneuvers, games are not really interesting. Of course, I suppose terrain is minimal.

Marc

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

madpax wrote:

If all ships are slow, they will have a lot of time to suffer. I like when my battles end with a lot of swirling maneuvers, dogfights, etc.
If the fleet just move toward each mover in a more or less straight way and the game end before real maneuvers, games are not really interesting. Of course, I suppose terrain is minimal.

Marc

Okay, good point.  What do you think of the thrust ratings I posted above?  The "average" value for heavy cruisers (kind of the mainstay of the SFU) is 6.  I think that's decently fast don't you?  The lowest I have for a fighting ship is 3 for the Fed/Gorn Battleships (which aren't even in Klingon/Romulan Armada) and the fastest is 10 (Orion Light Raider). 

-Tim

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

I don't have the time to look through my FC ship cards at the moment -- which ships from KA/RA are considered nimble?

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

cricket wrote:

I don't have the time to look through my FC ship cards at the moment -- which ships from KA/RA are considered nimble?

My SFB SSD's show the Romulan Snipe and Orion Light Raider as nimble.  Not sure if this designation made it into FC or not.

If you are going to give them overthrusters, perhaps reduce their thrust by 1 as I added a bonus thrust to them for the nimbleness.

Also, I am pretty sure that the Romulan Nuclear Space Mines didn't make it into FC.  But I gotta say they were cool and would help the "eagles" be a more distinct class - plus you have mine rules in SNE - so wouldn't be tough to add.  The snipe, battle hawk, war eagle and king eagle all had one NSM.

-Tim

Re: SFU Thrust Ratings

Marauder wrote:
madpax wrote:

If all ships are slow, they will have a lot of time to suffer. I like when my battles end with a lot of swirling maneuvers, dogfights, etc.
If the fleet just move toward each mover in a more or less straight way and the game end before real maneuvers, games are not really interesting. Of course, I suppose terrain is minimal.

Marc

Okay, good point.  What do you think of the thrust ratings I posted above?  The "average" value for heavy cruisers (kind of the mainstay of the SFU) is 6.  I think that's decently fast don't you?  The lowest I have for a fighting ship is 3 for the Fed/Gorn Battleships (which aren't even in Klingon/Romulan Armada) and the fastest is 10 (Orion Light Raider). 

-Tim

For my own SFU/STU rendition (a mix of both), ships will be a bit faster. DN will usually move at 6, and the fastest one, pseudo-fighters or gunboats will move at 10. Gorns will be slower (but will have armour) and Hydrans will be faster, at least those with fighters as they don't need as much power than other ships to move.
The difference between Fed and Klingons will not be on pure speed, but Klingons will have overthrusters.

Marc