Topic: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

A friend and I played today and are going a make a change to the Srarmada Games we play here in Jacksonville: 

:idea: We want to restrict all weapons to having only TWO Weapon Traits.  Note, Accuracy & Piercing will not count against this limit, so a weapon could have these two (Acr & Prc) and two more. 
[We will still not allow the weapon trait Expendible because we think it is Very Broken.]

This will prevent games from being like today's game was where, in the first shot, a c150 point ship, with a weapon that had Five weapon traits including Slw, destroyed a 520 point DN that had 45 Hull & 45 Armor with one shot.

We are going to try this on Saturday and we think it will be effective. 8-)

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

You seem to play with people who are into making "the winning combination" rather than ships with some sort of concept.  In roleplaying games, this same thing is called "min/maxing" 
Try designing a ship that fills a certain niche in the fleet, rather than just trying to find the best bang for your buck.  By this I mean, small fast ships with light weapons to handle escort or antifighter duty, long range battleships for bombardement, quick ships to function as wolfpacks to handle straglers on the field, etc.  Try to design ships as a real world military would. 
Our military engineers COULD design a working high altitude stealth bomber with 18 150mm cannons on it, but why would they?

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

koyodude wrote:

You seem to play with people who are into making "the winning combination" rather than ships with some sort of concept.  In roleplaying games, this same thing is called "min/maxing"

Pretty much this. Picking only what wins in a game where you have so many options for ship designing kinda misses the entire point of the game.

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

PSYCO829 wrote:
koyodude wrote:

You seem to play with people who are into making "the winning combination" rather than ships with some sort of concept.  In roleplaying games, this same thing is called "min/maxing"

Pretty much this. Picking only what wins in a game where you have so many options for ship designing kinda misses the entire point of the game.

Amen ta that.

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

Personally, I prefer to play with universes from other games, books, tv/movies because I can identify  the fleet I play with/against.
Trying to find the best combination of weapons is fun for mere minutes and can disgust people.
My 2 eurocents.

Marc

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

Hello everyone from Jacksonville,
My friends and I played two games of Starmada today using the Two Weapon-Trait limit, (Acr & Prc don't count against this limit).  The games were fine and lasted a little longer, and were less brutal than before. 
Some of the weapon combos we had on our ships included {Dx2+Dx3, Slow+Cts, Dx3+Cts, Tls+Dx3, Dfs+Rpt}.  All of these weapons also had Acr, and none had Prc because no one here used shields.  In fact, all of our ships have Fragile Systems.  One of my friends has Long Range Sensors on all of his ships, I have Overthrusters on all of mine, and another friend uses neither.   
I think we have made things unbroken, and made the game more fun to play. 8-)

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

BeowulfJB,
I agree with the view that its not the game that's broken but the way you play the game. Starmada is a construction kit to build fleets which match some form of background whether created by you or someone else. I know from other posts that competitive design is practiced by many others but that's not the strength of the game system.

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

I do believe that it was an Oops that has allowed the use of more traits than in Admiralty.
I have always resisted the temptation of putting silly* weapons on ships with one exception being an alien planet killer.
My thought is that there is no point in playing any game where everything goes Boom in the first turn.

How many weapon traits are allowed by the drydock?
I have thought of restricting the number allowed in shipyard nova a few times but I would not ban the use of expendable as it does have its' use (not to reduce cost) in conversions.

* Weapons that use traits to multiply the damage to the point of a fairly sure kill on the first attack.
This is just my 2d(Old Money)but it seems to me that it is an upward spiral, weapon does more damage > bigger ship > weapon does more damage > even bigger ship . . . .
Might just as well throw one D6 each, first to get a 6 wins!

Paul

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

The problem is, even if I'd kept the "soft cap" on numbers of weapon traits, players would have asked, "Is there anything wrong with putting more traits on?" and I'd have to admit there isn't, from a game-balance point of view. And we'd be right back where we are now. smile

Frankly, I agree that uber-weapons are "broken", not in that they are unbalanced (If you put a ship with Cts/Dx2/Dx3 weapons up against another ship with 18x the damage dice, I'd expect them to be equally-matched) but that they reduce the game to what someone once referred to as eggshells fighting with sledgehammers. As balanced as a game of Yahtzee, and about as much fun.

However, I don't know how to "encourage" players to avoid such abuses without arbitrary design limits.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

cricket wrote:

However, I don't know how to "encourage" players to avoid such abuses without arbitrary design limits.

How about the following:

The game will probably be a more enjoyable gaming experience if you limit weapon traits to two per weapon.
Thank you, and have a nice day.

wink
Kevin

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

I can't understand how a game where on the first turn of combat a fleet lose by seeing half its ships go BOOM is fun...
Maybe the best idea is to let the players exhaust themselves on killing combinations, the obvious result being that it will kill the fun first.

Marc

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

You could try adding a note to the design section of the book. Something along the lines of talking about the eggshells with sledgehammers potentially reducing the fun of the game, and that only designing ships that are powerful and not fun kinda misses the point of the entire designing system.

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

I wouldn't say that someone designing uber weapons misses the point of the design system, but much more explores just one facet and not the most interesting one.
BTW,  it's simply a game, and one of the interesting thing about games is that you don't have to win every time as your life is theoretically not threatened, but you can play with challenges which are usually more rewarding than simply deploying uber-ships and blasting the opponent in one alpha strike.

Marc

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

My friends and I are playing Starmada, here in Jacksonville, at Suncoast Comics near NAS Jax on Roosevelt Blvd. 
All are welcome. 8-)   
We will continue our restriction allowing only two weapons traits on weapons, with Acr & Prc not counting in that number.  Also, although we don't use Expendables, Seekers are allowed...

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

I fail to see why resitricting trait should be a solution, as each trait has a cost, and if this cost reduced the price, then this trait has some drawbacks.
BTW, against such weapons, maybe fighters are the beggining of the solution, but I would understand you wouldn't use them as they are very expensive.

Marc

Re: A Simple Idea to STOP Broken Uber-Weapons;

No one here uses fighters.  The two times I used them in S:NE, they failed miserablely; they are not cost effective.