• Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Topic: Small Ship Classes

Dear All,
Following the recent thread on ship classes I have been thinking (always dangerous smile) about how to 'model' small ships without the dreaded size creep. With WW1 destroyers some 30 times smaller than your average dreadnought and with NOVA having a practical lower limit of 3 hull you can end up with some pretty large battleships. Destroyers of that era tended to operate in flotillas so how could NOVA model them? I have two options the first is without changing any rules! (seems wrong somehow wink ) .

Inspired by the flotillas in SAE - DREADNOUGHT 

Tester Destroyer-flotilla class Destroyer (48)
ARMOR
HULL [_]:[_]:[_]
THRUST [8][6][4][3][2] WEAPONS [_][1][2][3][4]
ECM [1][1][1][0][0] SHIELDS
WEAPONS             ARCS RANGE ATTACK DICE -4 -6 -8 -10
3× Light Gun (Acr) [FX1] 1-2-3 3 2 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
18× Torpedoes (Prc){Exp} [TT3][TT3] [TT3] 1-2-3 23 16 11 8 6 4 3 2 1 1 1 1

This represents a three ship flotilla you can easily increase the number of hulls to reflect more ships. The ECM was to reflect the difficultly in targeting smaller ships. One possible rule change (see I knew it wouldn't last big_smile ) is to only allow one hull hit per weapon battery fired. Obviously you can use different weapons and such but do people think it reasonable to portray a group of small ships this way? 

The second is to use shuttles as destroyers but to allow them fighter traits.

I'm throwing both ideas out there for discussion. Just remember that if your setting is closer to a modern wet navy setting then the destroyers above are more like fast attack vessels in some of the lesser navies of the world. And if you are one of those gladiatorial games the designs may not be uber effective, they are not meant to be.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: Small Ship Classes

There were DDs in WW2 that were c2,000 tons.  These ships were only 1/16 of the prewar BBs.  But that still makes a big difference.
I think that the exact tonnage ratio from naval ships is not the best comparison for S:NE.  (Although if you compared the 8,000 ton DDGs of the Arliegh Burke class to the 48,000 ton modernized Iowa class BBs, you get a 1/6 ratio.)

Perhaps the Naval terms can still be used, but to show relative size, that is, a CL will be bigger than a DD, which will be bigger than a FF, etc.  How much bigger is up to the ship designer. 
BTW, I do like ur idea of the one-hull ship in a flotilla.  I think that these would make good PT boats.
Cheers.

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Small Ship Classes

To be honest the 1 hull space is from SAE Dreadnought, I just tried to adapt it. You are right about PTs, as far as I can see in the games you play flotillas are PT boats.

On ship sizes in general, I think NOVA is most suited to a modern style of naval combat with task forces built around one or two capital ships and quite capable escorts, but struggles to cope with a more WW1 setting with squadrons of battle ships and flotillas of small attack/defense boats.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Small Ship Classes

BeowulfJB wrote:

There were DDs in WW2 that were c2,000 tons.  These ships were only 1/16 of the prewar BBs.  But that still makes a big difference.
I think that the exact tonnage ratio from naval ships is not the best comparison for S:NE.  (Although if you compared the 8,000 ton DDGs of the Arliegh Burke class to the 48,000 ton modernized Iowa class BBs, you get a 1/6 ratio.)

Once again, I want to reiterate that tonnage to hull size is not a proper comparison. A hull 20 ship is not twice the mass of a hull 10 ship.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: Small Ship Classes

Would there be any approximate ratio of tonnage between a 20 hull ship and a 10 hull? Would it be the square root of the 2:1 ratio so that the 20 hull ship is c1.4 times larger?  Veteran math teacher here; just courious.
BTW, my friends & I here in Florida are having a blast with Starmada.  8-)

PS:  High temp here in Jacksonville will be only in upper 60s; Winter=Brrrr<LOL> tongue

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Small Ship Classes

Dan,
Yes you are right, but the SU ratio is actually worse. A minimum ship of 3 hull has 250.27 SU a ship 30 times bigger a WW1, Destroyer to Dreadnought, would have 7508.10 SU giving a Hull of just over 41 hull. Now that's hull size creep!

The relationship between a 10 and 20 hull are 1197.15 to 2947.74 just under 3 times.

So my original point about the need for very small ships I think still stands.

  • Registered: 2006-01-17
  • Posts: 740

Re: Small Ship Classes

I have made three-hull PT Boats with a CR=25.  Their speed is 13.  They are designed to move in and attack when & if opportunity arrises, usually along with other ships.  I tried using these as a trio of one hull ships, but the loss of the first hullpoint/little ship slows down the other two, then the losess of the second hull point/second small ship slows down the last one further if this flotilla procedure is used.  So I just use these inexpensive 3 hull PT boats.
Cheers

  • Registered: 2008-12-22
  • Posts: 654

Re: Small Ship Classes

mikeaxe wrote:

So my original point about the need for very small ships I think still stands.

I won't get into converting WWI ships or anything but I'm in agreement with the desire for "small ships", and have said so on a couple of occasions. I personally can't see how a Hull 1 or 2 ship “breaks the system”. Maybe it's a pointing thing I don't understand, but I think there is plenty of justification for having ships that simply go POOF when you hit them. I pretty much take all of my cues from published or television/movie science fiction and whether you call them LACs, FACs, PTs, gunboats, strikeboats, attack ships, whatever, there are lots of examples of things out there that would fit very nicely as 1-Hull ships as they are clearly NOT fighters but are routinely swatted aside by our valiant heroes. I actually thought the flotilla rules did a nice job of this and would like to see a return of something official (Don't tell Dan, but I've actually made some 1-Hull designs and used them, shhhhh).
Just my unwanted, un-asked-for opinion.
Cheers,
Erik

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Small Ship Classes

mikeaxe wrote:

Dan,
Yes you are right, but the SU ratio is actually worse. A minimum ship of 3 hull has 250.27 SU a ship 30 times bigger a WW1, Destroyer to Dreadnought, would have 7508.10 SU giving a Hull of just over 41 hull. Now that's hull size creep!

I guess I'm not understanding your point, because I don't see how that is "worse". To represent a ship that has 30x the "tonnage", you need a hull size that is just under 14x larger.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Small Ship Classes

dan,
The comment was the result of a internal debate and possibly not clear. Basically NOVA has a lower 3 Hull limit. A 3 hull is 250 SU compared with 60 for a single hull sized ship. This hike to 3 hull makes the notational dreadnought 30 times bigger then the smaller climb from 14 Hull to 41. That's why I said it's worse.

  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2005-03-27
  • Posts: 3,578

Re: Small Ship Classes

Ah, I see.

Then it should be remembered that ships in Nova take hull damage twice as quickly. (In Admiralty, only 50% of penetrating hits caused hull damage.)

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

mj12games's Website

  • Registered: 2006-07-24
  • Posts: 158

Re: Small Ship Classes

It makes more sense to look at the available space on a ship for tonnage than it does to look at the hull. The hull is just a representation of how much damage you can take before you're destroyed.

  • Registered: 2010-06-29
  • Posts: 82

Re: Small Ship Classes

PSYCO829 ,
True but hull has a direct if non-linear relationship to tonnage/SUs. Unless we of course decouple SU from Hull which is not a daft idea, thought it would made the gladiatorial  designers unmanageable smile the amount of hull is related to how 'big' it is.