Topic: Ship Classes

I see a lot of the following ship classes being used, but was wondering how people would actually define them in terms of what they're supposed to do, not so much as a general size. (Though I'm listing them in their approximate size rankings). ie: What makes a Frigate different from a Corvette; from a Destroyer?

Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser (general)
--Light Cruiser
--Heavy Cruiser
--Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnought

Monitor

Escort Carrier (while the Carrier part is self explanatory, 'Escort' don't seem as clear to me)

Re: Ship Classes

THe term Escort Carrier came in WW2 when the Allies built small, slower carriers on merchant ship hulls.  These CVEs were used to escort convoys in the Atlantic and CVEs in the Pacific supported amphibious assults with their aircraft.  The Allies built over a hundred of them...

Re: Ship Classes

Ah, words don't you love them. Ship classes change depending on setting. Take the Star Wars 'Star Destroyer' a dreadnought if ever I saw one :roll: . So really what they mean is up to you.

Historically the various terms have changed their meanings over time, with one era's Frigate is another era's Destroyer or in another a Cruiser. For example the term frigate had died out by the late 19th century and was reinvented post WW2 to describe a WW2 style destroyer while the term destroyer would more closely match a WW2 cruiser.

That being said I think there is some consensus, here is my take
Corvette - light and cheap escort vessel to guard convoys not expected to met enemy military vessels
Frigate - Heavier escort vessel rarely expected to be in a full battle (could also refer to a specialized escort vessel AAW or ASW for example)
Destroyer - Very heavy escort vessel  used to escort battle line ships in battle (a general escort vessel if frigates are specialists)
Cruiser (general) General workhorse (historically tended to operate far from home base. A sailing era frigate)
--Light Cruiser - lightly armed/armoured vessel (most often found in foreign stations)
--Heavy Cruiser - more heavily armed vessel (capable of being used as battle line substitute) 
Battle Cruiser - lightly armoured battleship
Battleship - the standard battle line ship able to both take and give out heavy damage 
Dreadnought - A more capable battleship (historically late era battleships)

Monitor- A heavily armed ship which has little or no maneuverability/speed. (Historically used for shore bombardment)

Of course everybody will have their own take on this and a perfectly reasonable justification for it.

Re: Ship Classes

IMHO, regardless of setting, you generally have three types of ship which roughly correspond to wet-navy roles as follows:

Battleships - dedicated combat vessels, whose sole mission in life is to destroy the other guy's battleships.

Cruisers - multi-role vessels, with enough weapons and defenses to stand up to anything except the other guy's battleships, but not so much of an investment of resources that they can't be risked on exploration, scouting, or diplomatic missions.

Escorts - primarily intended to guard non-combatants from pirates and unforseen dangers. Tend to square off against their opposite number in fleet actions and essentially cancel each other out. Can be indispensible against unconventional threats (torpedo boats, submarines, etc.).

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Ship Classes

I also have made several different CR=50 Gunboats with 4 hul & 1 armor, speed 12.  They are designed to charge into a battle and add their heary short-range firepower to a battle. 8-)

Re: Ship Classes

Beowulf is a follower of Jeune École. But we already knew that wink .  (and no its not an insult look it up)

The issue of classes of ship in the real world are influenced by many factors which starmada does not address, such as operational considerations, politics and resources availability. The CRAT DRAT are a measure of combat effectiveness ans SU is some measurement of size but ships are also impacted by finances.   
Like the recent thread on fleet composition it all depends on the setting. If, as many do, you competitively design and test them in 'gladiatorial' combat then the 'correct' solution is very different from you a playing a campaign and you need a fleet were your dreadnought has to be in many places at the same time.

Re: Ship Classes

Actually, my fleets resemble the USA Fleet in WW1.  I think our fleet had more BBs & DNs than cruisers in 1917.

The fleet I usually play consist of DNs that range in size from 49 Hull & 49 Armor to 43 Hull & 43 Armor, speed six.
They are escorted by DDs that usually have 10 Hull & 10 Armor, speed eight or nine.  Theer are gunboats/PT boats with 4 hull & one armor, speed 11+  to keep the other side off balance. 

I have designed a couple of cruisers, but just don't enjoy playing them much so I replace them with  DDs.  The only time they get used is in small battles.  These cruisers have 22 hull & 22 armor, speed seven and CR from 300 to 340.

The CR of the DNs ranges from 700 to 600, and the CR of the DDs  is from 150 to 200.  Other than the lack of cruisers, I do bring balanced fleets, the number of DDs usually being double the number of DNs I bring, with some of the smaller ones too.

Cheers

Re: Ship Classes

A follower of Mahan then sorry :? .

A WW1 fleet would not have cruisers in its battle line. Aside for the light cruisers squadrons at Jutland used for scouting the frigates of the sailing era and the attached light cruisers at Jutland were for communications, repeating flag signals from the admiral to their squadron. DN/BB/BC and DDs would have done most of the fighting.

Prompted by your hull sizes Beowulf, I've just done a very rough comparison between German, British, and US WW1 fleets and the displacement of a 'battleship' was about 30 times that of a destroyer. A destroyer of 10/10 should  compare with a DN of 300/300!  Hmmmmm.

Re: Ship Classes

mikeaxe wrote:

Prompted by your hull sizes Beowulf, I've just done a very rough comparison between German, British, and US WW1 fleets and the displacement of a 'battleship' was about 30 times that of a destroyer. A destroyer of 10/10 should  compare with a DN of 300/300!  Hmmmmm.

Remember hull size =/= "displacement". A more appropriate comparison would be space units. Thus, a destroyer of hull size 10 (too big, IMHO, but for the sake of argument) would compare to a battleship of hull size 128. (1,197 SUs vs. 35,966 SUs).

I think it would be more appropriate to set your "destroyer" at hull 3. This would put your "battleship" around hull 39. Still far too big for my tastes, but as I've said before, my life with Starmada has been one long (losing) battle against hull size creep. smile

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Ship Classes

I was not suggesting battle ships should be bigger just thinking about comparisons. I once played a great per dreadnought game called Steam and Steel  which had 1 hull space = 1000 tons = 1 destroyer! It worked really well with destroyer flotillas sheltering behind the battle line then charging though to deliver a torpedo salvo.

It does show that a person needs to decide on the 'period' they are 'modeling'. Deploying a flotilla of Arleigh Burkes would be ridicules and having a displacement of 9000+ tons they are quite large at a third of the displacement of a WW1 dreadnought.   

So back to the original question what is a DD? big_smile

Re: Ship Classes

What is a DD? I have no idea. smile

But in any given setting, I would set the smallest viable combat vessel at hull size 3 and go up from there... If in your setting those are called "destroyers" then I guess DDs are hull size 3.

Daniel Kast
Majestic Twelve Games
cricket@mj12games.com

Re: Ship Classes

Former US Navy Gunners-mate here & veteran of the "Cold War" between USA & USSR.
US Navy classification uses abreviations for ships. BB=battleship, CA=heavy cruiser, CL=light cruiser, DD=Destroyer, DE= destroyer escort, and there are others.
BTW, I am definitely a follower of Mahan. 8-)

13

Re: Ship Classes

THe term Escort Carrier came in WW2 when the Allies built small

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Re: Ship Classes

Maybe a bit late, but I'll add it anyway wink

These are essentially the designations I'm using in my upcoming Starmada universe setting. They are not set-in-stone and revolve more around the role of the ship rather than its physical size.

By order in the fleet list:
Gunboat - A lightly armed police ship intended for nothing more than local system patrol.

Corvette - Fast, inexpensive and lightly armed patrol ship. Designed for pirate interdiction (pirates play heavily in my setting) and convoy escort. Should operate in packs. Usually employed by militias or corporations.

Frigate - Generally the smallest Navy ships. Used for convoy escort, patrol, and system interdiction. Hyperspace coils are too small to use for effective scouting.

Destroyer - Smallest ship used in fleet actions. Destroyers in my universe are usually specialized to fill specific roles, such as escort, skirmishing, or scouting. Also generally the smallest ship capable of operating independently.

Light Cruiser - Most common Navy warship. Offers the best compromise between cost-to-operate, weapons, defenses, and speed. Various models exist to fill different roles.

Cruiser - Standard Navy warship. A Navy patrol group is usually made up of a cruiser with several light cruisers and various amounts of smaller escort ships. In battle a cruiser is suppose to dish out and absorb damage, and specifically keep the attention of the enemy cruisers off the light cruisers (while they chew apart the hostile forces). Cruiser are generally the largest Navy ships used outside of wartime.

Battlecruiser/Heavy Cruiser - Essentially an upgunned cruiser, usually with more protection and armament. Somewhat more rare because of the cost in both material and logistics. Not designed to fill a particular role, more to counter the increasing number of cruisers. Not generally deployed outside of wartime.

Grand Cruiser/Stardreadnaught - Experimental starships designed to bring overwhelming, decisive firepower to a battle. About 50% larger than a cruiser. At the current point in my timeline none have been deployed in active duty, though several prototypes exist. Warships of this size have not been built due mostly to the cost and logistical requirements.

Other Designations:

Raider - Small, fast starship used mostly by pirates. Heavily armed for their size. Usually very weak hulls as their maintenance and build quality is highly suspect.

Warcruiser - General designation given to any ship with firepower comparable to a Navy fleet warship.

Escort - General designation given to any ship designed primarily for convoy protection.

System Monitor - Usually a small ship (can be purpose built but often a conversion) that is slow but very heavily armed. Designed to defend static locations like space stations. Doesn't often have a hyperdrive to cut down on used mass. In battle a system monitor is considered "successful" if it manages to get its weapons fire off before being blown to bits.

That's basically where most of my designations fit. They're based more around role rather than size, so it's possible to have a "destroyer" that's equivalent to light cruiser tonnage, for example.

(if anyone is wondering about size, my cruisers sit at 16-18 hull, 7-8 armour, and a speed between 3-5)

Re: Ship Classes

Facinating. 
My CR=600 point Four-Turret-DNs now have 46 Hull & 46 Armor.  They have a speed=6 and most weapons shoot out to 18 which is the max range that we let ships can have among the people I game with... 8-)
I have DDs that have 13 hull & 13 armor, speed=7 and a CR=150
Cheers

Re: Ship Classes

That's a decent size. From what I've been reading around here it looks like my ships are "small", relatively speaking, but I think that works well into my timeline as it takes place somewhat "earlier" than most space operas. I think that gives my universe lots of room for ships to grow as I add more technology and ship types, without having to worry too much about hull creep.

Re: Ship Classes

Another interesting class designation I found while looking through some BFG literature. The Dauntless-class light cruiser was referred to as a "scout cruiser". Larger than a frigate or destroyer and capable to taking on anything smaller or equal sized, and outrunning anything larger. Functionally similar to a CL I guess, but I thought it was a cool designation.

Re: Ship Classes

I've always liked the Babylon 5 universe and its proliferation of ship classifications.  The best example is the Earth Alliance Omega destroyer, which out masses the Earth Alliance Nova Dreadnought (something you don't see too often).  Some of the other races have similar flips in the traditional (by this I mean WW1-WWII) order.  Given that such flips have happened in the past it makes for a neat little insiders joke.

Most of the ships I design vary in size by their assigned roles and I don't worry about size (hull or SU) vs. name.  It also varies by tech level obviously.  My Narn Battleships have the same hull as my BFG light cruisers, for instance.  In my group we usually simply designate each ship as being of a certain points value (After the Tyranid Kraken 60hull/40Armor 200point regenerating ship incident anyway)

Re: Ship Classes

FreeSpace & FreeSpace 2 (the best space combat sims ever made, IMO) used a similar inverted class designation.

Destroyers were the largest ships*, being around 2Km in length. They were called "destroyers" because they carried so much firepower they simply destroyed anything in their path. The only threats to them were other destroyers (and bombers).

Corvettes were the next largest. Smaller and faster than destroyers, but almost as though and very heavily armed. Within FreeSpace canon they were designed to combat the powerful Shivan cruisers, and were basically meant to be able to kill anything that wasn't a destroyer.

Cruisers were actually the smallest capital ships in FS canon and although most were around the same size they varied widely in speed, armour, and firepower. The most powerful Shivan cruisers could threaten a destroyer, whereas the weakest Terran cruiser could be killed by a single well piloted fighter, despite the fact that both were around the same physical size.**

*There were 3 ships larger than destroyers -a Shivan superdestroyer, which was nearly invulnerable and very heavily armed, a terran Juggernaught 5 times larger than the superdestroyer and designed specifically to counter them, and a Shivan juggernaught which is the most powerful ship in FS canon.

**The strength, small size, and lack of variation is quite possibly artificial, imposed by the technical limitations of computers of the time (1998/1999), but explained nicely in FS canon.

I've worked on converting FS designs to Starmada, but it's very difficult considering destroyers are significantly more powerful than most cruisers. Cruisers end up getting a significant "buff" while destroyers are likewise "nerfed". It's also hard to convert with Starmada's broken fighters since FreeSpace is very heavy on fighter combat. (As an aside, also had the same problem trying to convert Star Wars ships to Starmada.. hard making a CR90 and an ISD in the same game -true to scale- where the ISD can't one-shot almost anything...especially when it carries 60 starfighters)