Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

Designs look good.  I agree about no phasers for the Klingons, my designs have various disruptors as well.

My designs have a lot more armor, I mean screens, and longer ranged weapons (most go to 15-18).  If the enemy has range 18 weapons then you are more likely to lose if you don't come close to it.  Our local house rule is that 18 is the max range, although Long Range Sensors can extend that, and weapons on bases can have a range up to 30.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

GamingGlen wrote:

Designs look good.  I agree about no phasers for the Klingons, my designs have various disruptors as well.

My designs have a lot more armor, I mean screens, and longer ranged weapons (most go to 15-18).  If the enemy has range 18 weapons then you are more likely to lose if you don't come close to it.  Our local house rule is that 18 is the max range, although Long Range Sensors can extend that, and weapons on bases can have a range up to 30.

These designs are made to progress.  The TNG ships will have the longer range weapons.  If i was just doing TOS stand alone they would be longer. 
As for the defense, do you put on more screen then you have hull?  I have in my mind always used that as my personal high end (not house rule).  Maybe the Cardassian ships might get a little more and Klingon ship always see to pop a little easier so they get a little less.
I agree, range 30 weapons must be on a base or some very special circumstance.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

Johenric wrote:

These designs are made to progress.  The TNG ships will have the longer range weapons.  If i was just doing TOS stand alone they would be longer.

I understand that, but locally we won't be doing anything like that.  I do have some tech improvements for various generations, but lowest end range is 12.

As for the defense, do you put on more screen then you have hull?  I have in my mind always used that as my personal high end (not house rule).

Sometimes more, sometimes less.  I tend to get the CRAT values to be multiples of 50 or 100, makes the math easier to come up with spur of the moment fleet sizes.  Or if a small ship ends up with a CRAT of 85, I'll make another ship with a CRAT of n15 to even both to some n00 value.  My Klingons do favor less screens for more weapons (Hiv!).

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

My personal designs tend to have almost twice as much armor (screens) as hull, with level three screens.  I like the heavy armor to delay as long as possible losing any weapons.  I like my ships to go down fighting. 
My StarTrek type designs have the same amount of screens as armor.  I also give the Photon Torpedoes, disruptors, and phasers a maximum range of 18.   I use these  designs for new players to use because they are simpledesigns.
Here is a Constitution class Federation BC:

Federation BC (600)
-Tech: Engines +2; Weapons +2

Screens: 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Hull: 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Engines: 5-5-4-3-2-1
Weapons: 21-18-14-11-7-4
Shields: 4-4-3-2-2-1

Phaser (6-12-18) 1×3+/1/1
ABCD ☐| ABCD ☐| ABC ☐| ABC ☐| ABD ☐| ABD ☐ // (3)

Photon Torpedo (6-12-18) 1×3+/1/5 (Pr1)
GHI ☐| GHI ☐| GHI ☐ // (2)

Point-Defense Phaser (2-4-6) 1×3+/1/1 (Dfn)
360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐ // (3)

Equipment: Hyperdrive ☐| Overthrusters ☐| Tractor Beam ☐☐☐☐ // (3)

Marines : 2-1

The Klingon D7 is also a 600 point ship.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

BeowulfJB wrote:

My personal designs tend to have almost twice as much armor (screens) as hull, with level three screens.  I like the heavy armor to delay as long as possible losing any weapons.  I like my ships to go down fighting. 
My StarTrek type designs have the same amount of screens as armor.  I also give the Photon Torpedoes, disruptors, and phasers a maximum range of 18.   I use these  designs for new players to use because they are simpledesigns.
Here is a Constitution class Federation BC:

Federation BC (600)
-Tech: Engines +2; Weapons +2

Screens: 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Hull: 11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Engines: 5-5-4-3-2-1
Weapons: 21-18-14-11-7-4
Shields: 4-4-3-2-2-1

Phaser (6-12-18) 1×3+/1/1
ABCD ☐| ABCD ☐| ABC ☐| ABC ☐| ABD ☐| ABD ☐ // (3)

Photon Torpedo (6-12-18) 1×3+/1/5 (Pr1)
GHI ☐| GHI ☐| GHI ☐ // (2)

Point-Defense Phaser (2-4-6) 1×3+/1/1 (Dfn)
360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐| 360° ☐ // (3)

Equipment: Hyperdrive ☐| Overthrusters ☐| Tractor Beam ☐☐☐☐ // (3)

Marines : 2-1

The Klingon D7 is also a 600 point ship.

I try to build my ships as close to canon as possible but everyone has their own flavor.  :mrgreen:

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

A lower cost alternative of the Constitution.  The Avery Class.
[attachment=0]Avery Class.png[/attachment]

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

Two more  :mrgreen:
[attachment=0]S&O.png[/attachment]

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

And in all her glory  :shock: 
[attachment=0]DN.png[/attachment]

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

And this completes the BASE Federation TOS lineup.  There are and will be more Fed TOS ships but I will save those for the 2nd edition.  big_smile

FF - Okinawa
DD - Saladin
CL - Avery
CA - Constitution
DN - Federation
CVE - Napoleon

[attachment=0]CVE.png[/attachment]

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

D-10 deleted, under revision.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

You're missing some equipment, and not taking advantage of a game *ahem* exploit.

Tractor Beams: your best defense against weapon loss.  Put about 2-4 TBs on your ships and those fragile systems fail from the first weapon hit (or 2 or 3 if you have a lot of TBs).

TBs also make for backup anti-seeker/fighter defense, although their to-hit is low (but they are small and cheap).

Another thing: small arcs.  That's great in SFB, where movement has a lot of wiggle room and firing can be done at any time during movement.  I expand the weapons arcs by 1 arc compared to SFB ships to account for simulated on-the-move firing solutions.  Also, I often play against someone with 300 degree arcs for his main weapons so it's really disadvantageous to have limited arcs when playing against him. IMO, arcs over 180 degrees should scale up faster but instead actually scale slower  (1 arc to 2 arcs is 2x : 3x, 50% increase, 4 arcs to 5 arcs is 5x : 6x, 20% increase).

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

GamingGlen wrote:

You're missing some equipment, and not taking advantage of a game *ahem* exploit.

Tractor Beams: your best defense against weapon loss.  Put about 2-4 TBs on your ships and those fragile systems fail from the first weapon hit (or 2 or 3 if you have a lot of TBs).

TBs also make for backup anti-seeker/fighter defense, although their to-hit is low (but they are small and cheap).

Another thing: small arcs.  That's great in SFB, where movement has a lot of wiggle room and firing can be done at any time during movement.  I expand the weapons arcs by 1 arc compared to SFB ships to account for simulated on-the-move firing solutions.  Also, I often play against someone with 300 degree arcs for his main weapons so it's really disadvantageous to have limited arcs when playing against him. IMO, arcs over 180 degrees should scale up faster but instead actually scale slower  (1 arc to 2 arcs is 2x : 3x, 50% increase, 4 arcs to 5 arcs is 5x : 6x, 20% increase).

UC ships are designed to be balanced with each other so the arcs are very important for game play.  Positioning and trying to out think your opponents next move becomes MUCH more interesting then not much caring where you end up because the arcs are huge. 
I intentionally left tractor beams out because that is not how Star Trek canon uses tractor beams. That was a SFB thing.
UC is not about minmaxing.  You will find some of these designs have a bit of space left over and this is intentional for cost balancing and Trek feel accuracy. :mrgreen:

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

GamingGlen, here is a klingon ship thinking of you! wink
The D-5 is a special ship in the Klingon fleet.  Its supports weapons with sweeping arcs so it can continuously deliver the pain no matter the facing.  Originally a battlecruiser, it is now classed as a destroyer as newer ship designs were constructed.  This is one mean destroyer as it supports a variety of weapon systems. :twisted:

[attachment=0]d5.png[/attachment]

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

Well, 360 is going a bit overboard, especially with the big guns.   tongue

Your defense weapons is a problem.  Klingons charge the enemy.  Hard to destroy those seekers/fighters in front of you with rear-firing defense weapons.  I tend to group them as a "Defensive Array Network" representing a variety of defensive measures (various short-ranged weapons, small capacity tractor beams, countermeasures to small warheads with tracking ability, etc.) all around the ship and give it 360 degrees arcs of fire.  But that's me, preferring not to get too fiddly with the small weapons.

As for single arcs weapons (G), I save that arc for spinal mounts (Traveller), rail guns of a particular race from Full Thrust, or big anime one-shot-one-kill type of weapons.  The Photon Torpedoes in Star Trek did have limited tracking and can veer their course (like underwater torpedoes).  Even then I don't like playing those single arc weapons after years of frustration.  Having a big gun that you might fire once is not much fun.  Hmm, usually that happens on first approach, after that it's hard to get a single arc weapon on the enemy in a turning battle.  Maybe I'll make a weapon with "Slw; Slw" since firing once only and early is the most likely scenario before the ship gets blown up.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

GamingGlen wrote:

Well, 360 is going a bit overboard, especially with the big guns.   tongue

Your defense weapons is a problem.  Klingons charge the enemy.  Hard to destroy those seekers/fighters in front of you with rear-firing defense weapons.  I tend to group them as a "Defensive Array Network" representing a variety of defensive measures (various short-ranged weapons, small capacity tractor beams, countermeasures to small warheads with tracking ability, etc.) all around the ship and give it 360 degrees arcs of fire.  But that's me, preferring not to get too fiddly with the small weapons.

As for single arcs weapons (G), I save that arc for spinal mounts (Traveller), rail guns of a particular race from Full Thrust, or big anime one-shot-one-kill type of weapons.  The Photon Torpedoes in Star Trek did have limited tracking and can veer their course (like underwater torpedoes).  Even then I don't like playing those single arc weapons after years of frustration.  Having a big gun that you might fire once is not much fun.  Hmm, usually that happens on first approach, after that it's hard to get a single arc weapon on the enemy in a turning battle.  Maybe I'll make a weapon with "Slw; Slw" since firing once only and early is the most likely scenario before the ship gets blown up.

My arcs are based on what we see on screen and then what we can reasonably guess would make sense.  That 360 isn't because i felt like it but because it is suggested that there is a dual disruptor turret on the belly of the D5.  And i can't make the other disruptors that are locked in a forward direction shoot to the side.  Staying as true to canon as possible doesn't allow it. 
Star Trek ships were not designed to fight waves of fighters or missiles. You see them on screen use their main weapons in some capacity to shoot small things so i have to tread carefully in this area. 
SFB did a lot of things that are not supported by canon in terms of ship/weapon design.  I still love a lot of SFB ships but not all systems or ships with fit into a canon focused ship list.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

What you see on screen is what the plot calls for or what the sfx people can create.

There is no true canon on how Star Trek weapons work.  I have seen photon torpedoes curve as they track their target; especially in one of the movies where a torpedo was specially built to follow the trail of the cloaked Klingon's torpedo back to the Klingon ship.  It curved quite a bit (plot device).  TNG Enterprise's phaser(s) swung around under the main hull in a huge arc.   TOS Enterprise were more limited, but then all you saw was two beams firing down or forward from either side or front under the main hull.  I would give those ABC, GHI, ABD arcs (3 banks of 2).

You can look at the bumpy bits on a miniature and use that to deduce weapons and arcs.  Foregoing the 3D aspect, seems to me that those bumpy bits have bigger range of arcs than you're portraying.  My arcs tend to be wider, and then wider still because of my usual opponent.  But those are your designs to play with. 

Tactical maneuvering is fine, but Starmada's movement system is not all that great.  Your designs should also consider the game mechanics, not necessarily to exploit them but to account how you think the weapons (or other systems) should work given the game limitations (i.e., no firing while on the move).  If I think a weapon should normally be AB, I'll make it GHI so that after movement enemy ships that were probably in the AB arc during the move might still be within the GHI arcs during the Combat Phase, and also allows for your ship's maneuvering to have some wiggle in it to offset the limited 6 directions the miniature can be facing.  We got used to using the 12 directions on a hex map a ship can be facing in Full Thrust (hex side or hex spine) due to its normal 12 points of facing when not using hexes.  We haven't worked on how to do that in Starmada (adapting the movement system; firing arcs would be fairly easy).

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

GamingGlen wrote:

What you see on screen is what the plot calls for or what the sfx people can create.

In that case we can discount everything we see because plot always overrides everything.  Just the way it is.
My point is you have to come to logical conclusions and understand where sfx people made mistakes, plot made hero ships and what the game system allows.

GamingGlen wrote:

Tactical maneuvering is fine, but Starmada's movement system is not all that great.

Default movement for B5 like stuff and optional movement rules for Star Trek type stuff.  I think they work well.

GamingGlen wrote:

Your designs should also consider the game mechanics, not necessarily to exploit them but to account how you think the weapons (or other systems) should work given the game limitations (i.e., no firing while on the move).
If I think a weapon should normally be AB, I'll make it GHI so that after movement enemy ships that were probably in the AB arc during the move might still be within the GHI arcs during the Combat Phase, and also allows for your ship's maneuvering to have some wiggle in it to offset the limited 6 directions the miniature can be facing.  We got used to using the 12 directions on a hex map a ship can be facing in Full Thrust (hex side or hex spine) due to its normal 12 points of facing when not using hexes.  We haven't worked on how to do that in Starmada (adapting the movement system; firing arcs would be fairly easy).

I am very aware of game mechanics and making ship position means little turns the game in to a roll off.  Writing orders and trying to outsmart your opponent, anticipating his move, holding that slow firing weapon till the time is right.  That is the fun in what i am creating.  This also gives smaller ships a little more survivability as they can more easily stay away from heavy weapons of the big guys.
We may have to agree to disagree. :mrgreen:

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

TWO ship packs are now available!  Federation and Klingon.  Download them in the Universal Conflict post in The Bourbaki Basin section of the forums.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

New guy here.  I was looking over your material, and was wondering why you didn't include any of the ships from the FASA game system.  While there are definitely problems with the balance of their ships, particularly the post-movie era stuff, it would significantly improve the ship selection, and you could modify them to suit your interpretation of the ship's performance.  smile

I am not a fan of the SFU, having had a falling out with the designer, and so moved on to Full Thrust.  My efforts to devise a version of Full Thrust to do what I want is becoming more challenging than I had expected, mainly because FT doesn't model different tech levels well, which at first glance Starmada does a better job of that.  Which is why I am here, looking at possibly adding Starmada to my collection of rulesets.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

billclo wrote:

New guy here.  I was looking over your material, and was wondering why you didn't include any of the ships from the FASA game system.  While there are definitely problems with the balance of their ships, particularly the post-movie era stuff, it would significantly improve the ship selection, and you could modify them to suit your interpretation of the ship's performance.  smile

I am not a fan of the SFU, having had a falling out with the designer, and so moved on to Full Thrust.  My efforts to devise a version of Full Thrust to do what I want is becoming more challenging than I had expected, mainly because FT doesn't model different tech levels well, which at first glance Starmada does a better job of that.  Which is why I am here, looking at possibly adding Starmada to my collection of rulesets.

I have nothing against FASA and i have no problem using their ships!  I guess to answer your question, random luck? big_smile

I have not worked on this for a while as there seems to be very little interest in this community and this is a lot of work for one person.
Oddly, people seem to be more interested in copying another game to work in the rules of Starmada.  That doesn't make much sense to me as then why not just go play that other game you are copying?  lol
My work was to create a universal Star Trek line within Starmada.  A game of its own.  Not a water downed copy of another game.  But the way i feel is clearly in the minority.  :roll:  So i have turned my attention to other things.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

I watched your designs with great interest!

They are well executed and work together pretty seamlessly, creating a real "star trek" feel.  The main reason I didn't jump in particularly hard is because I'm not a particularly big fan of the TOS era aesthetic and know little about it (I'm a DS9 kid, sadly for me).

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

BroAdso2017 wrote:

I watched your designs with great interest!

They are well executed and work together pretty seamlessly, creating a real "star trek" feel.  The main reason I didn't jump in particularly hard is because I'm not a particularly big fan of the TOS era aesthetic and know little about it (I'm a DS9 kid, sadly for me).

Thank you very much!  Just a couple more people like you and i never would have stopped.  wink
I had a shiplist worked out all the way out to the Enterprise E.  My favorite time is TNG/DS9 in terms of ships but I wanted to start at the beginning.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

Oddly, people seem to be more interested in copying another game to work in the rules of Starmada. That doesn't make much sense to me as then why not just go play that other game you are copying?  lol
My work was to create a universal Star Trek line within Starmada. A game of its own. Not a water downed copy of another game. But the way i feel is clearly in the minority.  :roll: So i have turned my attention to other things.

I think that the reason that people such as myself like Starmada SFU is that we have been gaming in the SFU for a long time (I bought the Designer's Edition in 1983). However, many of us felt the SFU had a problem: a bloated, outdated ruleset that demanded time-consuming micromanagement of each ship, which made games sometimes take multiple sittings to complete. Don't even get me started on how long damage allocation took...

We loved the setting however, and the ships (that was why I disliked FASA - imho their ships were often downright ugly). While I sympathize with you re: your implied issues with "the designer," I have to say, I'm a big fan of his work. What I always wanted was a version of SFB that was quicker and easier to play.

Then, Federation Commander came along. I jumped ship from SFB to FC, and although it was an improvement, too much (imho) of the intricacy of SFB was retained. Damage allocation had been streamlined to a degree, but it still took too damn long to allocate a 96-point alpha strike on a downed shield. And so, I still ended up playing mostly duels, not multi-ships-per-side engagements.

I knew of Starmada SFU, but had heard it was too "different" - especially Nova - and I was told I probably would not like it. But then Unity arrived, and I heard good things. I picked up Klingon Armada, liked what I saw, and I grabbed Romulan Armada as well. After a few games, I had internalized the rules to such a degree that I rarely needed to consult the rulebook. There's no going back for me. You gotta love a game where you can keep the damage allocation chart in your head!

TL;DR: I don't consider Starmada SFU Unity to be a "watered-down" version of anything. I consider it to be an improved iteration of a game and game-universe I love. The (very) few things I missed that were not included out-of-the-box (such as tactical maneuvers) I was easily able to incorporate. Starmada Unity SFU is the game I always wished SFB and FC were.

As for your designs: I think they are amazing! The issue of lack of interest might perhaps stem from the fact that there are no Romulans or other races besides Feds and Klingons. I'll bet many were eagerly waiting to see more of your work - I know I was!

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

cnuzzi wrote:

I think that the reason that people such as myself like Starmada SFU is that we have been gaming in the SFU for a long time (I bought the Designer's Edition in 1983). However, many of us felt the SFU had a problem: a bloated, outdated ruleset that demanded time-consuming micromanagement of each ship, which made games sometimes take multiple sittings to complete. Don't even get me started on how long damage allocation took...

We loved the setting however, and the ships (that was why I disliked FASA - imho their ships were often downright ugly). While I sympathize with you re: your implied issues with "the designer," I have to say, I'm a big fan of his work. What I always wanted was a version of SFB that was quicker and easier to play.

Then, Federation Commander came along. I jumped ship from SFB to FC, and although it was an improvement, too much (imho) of the intricacy of SFB was retained. Damage allocation had been streamlined to a degree, but it still took too damn long to allocate a 96-point alpha strike on a downed shield. And so, I still ended up playing mostly duels, not multi-ships-per-side engagements.

I knew of Starmada SFU, but had heard it was too "different" - especially Nova - and I was told I probably would not like it. But then Unity arrived, and I heard good things. I picked up Klingon Armada, liked what I saw, and I grabbed Romulan Armada as well. After a few games, I had internalized the rules to such a degree that I rarely needed to consult the rulebook. There's no going back for me. You gotta love a game where you can keep the damage allocation chart in your head!

TL;DR: I don't consider Starmada SFU Unity to be a "watered-down" version of anything. I consider it to be an improved iteration of a game and game-universe I love. The (very) few things I missed that were not included out-of-the-box (such as tactical maneuvers) I was easily able to incorporate. Starmada Unity SFU is the game I always wished SFB and FC were.

As for your designs: I think they are amazing! The issue of lack of interest might perhaps stem from the fact that there are no Romulans or other races besides Feds and Klingons. I'll bet many were eagerly waiting to see more of your work - I know I was!

Very thoughtful reply, I didn't think about it like that and I can clearly see why people would feel that way.  I never played SFB though I was HUGE into SFC I & II the PC game.  I have played FC many times and I liked it for what it was, a dueling game.  At least that's how it felt to me.
I thought the lack of any input was a lack of interest and it is a lot of work, at least it is for me.  I will spend hours on one ship researching it and arguing with myself over cannon vs fluff vs gameplay vs FASA vs SFB vs Joe Schmoes opinion :roll: .  Then building a ship trying to mix that together in a way I feel most people would accept.  I have even worked in a timeline (took two days) that mixes all these different universes into a single timeline of when ships were launched.  The fudging I had to do with SFB and FASA with cannon ruling supreme 90% of the time mixed in with an educated guess.  Even after all that I chose to leave those dates out as it might cause to much contention and just be a distraction.
And here i am rattling on, anyway, Thank you

And yes, I aslo feel most FASA ship are horrendous looking but i do like including the few good looking ones.

Re: Universal Conflict - Star Trek

To add my penny's worth--I have no knowledge beyond the info found in the SAE Romulan Armada about the non-screen (i.e., TV/film) Star Trek universe, so all I can do is a 'ooh, that looks interesting. And even my screen-Trek knowledge is incomplete, as I've never seen many episodes of TOS and my main knowledge was TNG onwards. Basically, when I've got little or no knowledge, I can't offer any constructive criticism because, to me, it's about as familiar as, say, MRCAcct's SNE Silicoids and Terrans or KDLadage's SDG setting (in fact, I know more about that because I was involved in knocking up some SX ships for some of the powers (when, I'm sad to say, I was still in my power-gaming stage. Now I try to design interesting ships...))